D&D 5E Great Weapon Master vs. Hex/Hunter's Mark

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[MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION] [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] The ranger i Play has archery with ist +2, it compensates a Little, but not much. Battlemasters precision, ok, Pally bless, ok but you still have a malus between 2 and 4 and if you look at prof Bonus only rising from +2 to +6 over the progression and asuming you max out (or reach the desired end value which also may be a 16 or 18 depending on how feat hungry you are) your attack attribute quite early that comes into Play.
Again, to cause any damage at all you need to hit, and that is a big minus for GWM and SS blime it either is, or your DM does never use mobs with decent AC.

 

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[MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION] [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] The ranger i Play has archery with ist +2, it compensates a Little, but not much. Battlemasters precision, ok, Pally bless, ok but you still have a malus between 2 and 4 and if you look at prof Bonus only rising from +2 to +6 over the progression and asuming you max out (or reach the desired end value which also may be a 16 or 18 depending on how feat hungry you are) your attack attribute quite early that comes into Play.
Again, to cause any damage at all you need to hit, and that is a big minus for GWM and SS blime it either is, or your DM does never use mobs with decent AC.

Hmm... on paper against targets with AC appropriate for level, the Ranger should equal the Fighter for levels 1 through 10.

Both take Dexterity +2, and then Sharpshooter. Fighter gains Dexterity +2 again. Longbow.
Fighter uses Precision on misses by 1-4.
Ranger is a Hunter with... Hordebreaker?

Looks pretty close to me over levels 1-10. A point or two in Fighter's favour, if Hordebreaker only triggers half the time. Fighter can throw in an Action Surge so that will help them. Ranger spots foes more easily - which needs a DM for whom skills actually matter, to be effective.

After level 10, Fighter has advantage in situations where Volley is bad. Ranger in situations where Volley is good.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmm... on paper against targets with AC appropriate for level, the Ranger should equal the Fighter for levels 1 through 10.

Both take Dexterity +2, and then Sharpshooter. Fighter gains Dexterity +2 again. Longbow.
Fighter uses Precision on misses by 1-4.
Ranger is a Hunter with... Hordebreaker?

Looks pretty close to me over levels 1-10. A point or two in Fighter's favour, if Hordebreaker only triggers half the time. Fighter can throw in an Action Surge so that will help them. Ranger spots foes more easily - which needs a DM for whom skills actually matter, to be effective.

After level 10, Fighter has advantage in situations where Volley is bad. Ranger in situations where Volley is good.

You missed crossbow expertise. Optimized fighter generally beats the ranger in damage for most levels in the 1-10 range

 

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You missed crossbow expertise. Optimized fighter generally beats the ranger in damage for most levels in the 1-10 range

It's true that the comparison I was making, was between two characters with Sharpshooter. My general claim is that Ranger has close to parity with the Fighter for at least the first 10 levels

If we add Crossbow Expert into the mix, we can see these factors -

1. For the first 10 levels, Fighter and Ranger continue to have the same number of attacks: they can both gain one bonus attack by using a Hand Crossbow
2. Using Precision on misses by 1-4 expends a superiority die per attack (20% * 5 rounds of combat); after 7th, Fighter has 5 dice, so the bonus attack can only receive Precision half the time (it may be better to switch to Precision on misses by 1-3 for all attacks)
3. Hunter's Mark is harder to assess, because it costs a bonus action to move it and Ranger is using their bonus action on the Hand Crossbow: sometimes Ranger must skip a bonus attack to move Hunter's Mark
4. Crossbow Expert will improve Hordebreaker because the bonus attack can trigger it (if it is not already triggered), and the obviation of disadvantage in close will be good in scenarios where Hordebreaker is good (i.e. lots of foes)

Precision half the time could well be the same as skipping one bonus attack every so often to shift Hunters Mark, but the Hordebreaker benefit is solid: on first assessment I would guess rough parity is retained. I can look at that in more detail later.

It's when Fighter gets to add more Extra Attacks at 11th and above that they seem to pull ahead (only in cases where Volley is bad).

 

[FrogReaver]

It's true that the comparison I was making, was between two characters with Sharpshooter. My general claim is that Ranger has close to parity with the Fighter for at least the first 10 levels<br>
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If we add Crossbow Expert into the mix, we can see these factors -<br>
<ol class="decimal"><li> For the first 10 levels, Fighter and Ranger continue to have the same number of attacks: they can both gain one bonus attack by using a Hand Crossbow</li>
<li> Using Precision on misses by 1-4 expends a superiority die per attack (20% * 5 rounds of combat); after 7th, Fighter has 5 dice, so the bonus attack can only receive Precision half the time (it may be better to switch to Precision on misses by 1-3 for all attacks)</li>
<li> Hunter's Mark is harder to assess, because it costs a bonus action to move it and Ranger is using their bonus action on the Hand Crossbow: <em>sometimes </em> Ranger must skip a bonus attack to move Hunter's Mark</li>
<li> Crossbow Expert will improve Hordebreaker because the bonus attack can trigger it (if it is not already triggered), and the obviation of disadvantage in close will be good in scenarios where Hordebreaker is good (i.e. lots of foes) </li>
</ol><br>
Precision half the time could well be the same as skipping one bonus attack every so often to shift Hunters Mark, but the Hordebreaker benefit is solid: on first assessment I would guess rough parity is retained. I can look at that in more detail later.<br>
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<strong>It's when Fighter gets to add more Extra Attacks at 11th and above that they seem to pull ahead (only in cases where Volley is bad)</strong>.

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I would never consider HordeBreaker in a DPR contest because it can't hit the same target. It has it's uses for sure, but focus fire will prove much more useful and so I don't treat damage that can focus fire the same as damage that cannot. Speaking of focus fire. If the party is using optimal focus fire tactics then the ranger will find it difficult to keep hunter's mark on the same target. Everytime his target goes down he loses a bonus action attack (which will be quite often if the party is focus firing the same enemy each round). He also loses a bonus action attack at the start of each combat. So the hunter's mark using ranger get's no where near the number of bonus action attacks as a fighter. I think a good estimate would be about 50% of the time he will either have to give up hunter's mark or give up the extra attack.<br>
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A level 5 crossbow expert fighter will do 78 attacks in a 24 round day with 2 short rests. He will get 12 uses of precision. I would use precision on misses of 1-4. You will run out of precision on average before the end of the day, but not by much. You will turn on average 9.75 misses into hits with the 1-4 strategy. 9.75 / 12 = 12.5%. You will be gaining12.5% chance to hit. Like I say, a 15% chance to hit estimate is a very good estimate. As you mentioned you start getting more dice and bigger dice in the level ranges we are talking about as well and so what happens is some levels you are above 15% and other levels you will be slightly lower than 15%.

 

[iamntbatman]

Hmm...I like the feat and feel like it not only helps give the hard-hitting melee classes a leg up to compete with other builds, but also helps gives sometimes boring builds a bit more to think about tactically as they decide whether or not to turn on the switch per hit. But, being mechanically extremely similar to Sharpshooter, I'd suggest something like changing bonuses per weapon, perhaps borrowing from previous iterations or other games:

Replace the second part with a choice depending on weapon. Greatswords get a non-bonus action extra attack on crits (roll normally). Mauls could get the same bonus as currently offered by the -5/+10 part. Greataxes could get a crit bonus (maybe another extra damage die on crits?). The heavy polearms could get the flat 1d6 damage bonus. Basically, give something to different possible approaches using two-handed heavy melee weapons. Builds with lots of attacks might like greatswords most. PAM builds could get a nice even damage boost, which fits the build. Greataxes could get even more crit love with that sweet 1d12. Mauls would finally get some more use with the already established and well-liked -5/+10 choice.

 

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I would never consider HordeBreaker in a DPR contest because it can't hit the same target. It has it's uses for sure, but focus fire will prove much more useful and so I don't treat damage that can focus fire the same as damage that cannot. Speaking of focus fire. If the party is using optimal focus fire tactics then the ranger will find it difficult to keep hunter's mark on the same target. Everytime his target goes down he loses a bonus action attack (which will be quite often if the party is focus firing the same enemy each round). He also loses a bonus action attack at the start of each combat. So the hunter's mark using ranger get's no where near the number of bonus action attacks as a fighter. I think a good estimate would be about 50% of the time he will either have to give up hunter's mark or give up the extra attack.

I want to point out that this is contradictory. On the one hand, you want to say that damage done to a second target doesn't count. On the other hand, you want to say that we need to switch targets and sometimes have to give up one bonus attack or the hunters mark. But... if we are switching targets then we're in all likelihood now hitting the foe that took our Hordebreaker damage earlier. So that damage counts, and at other times the Hordebreaker damage alone will slay a foe.

The reason focus fire is good is because it most efficiently reduces the number of counter attacks. Not because it is the most efficient way to reduce hit points distributed at random, across a random number of foes, to zero. Excluding Hordebreaker is framing the argument in a way that forces a single conclusion. We'd also need to exclude GFB, Sentinel triggers, Ripostes, GWM bonus attacks (on slaying foes outright)... anything that assumed more than one relevant foe. I'll continue my analysis with Hordebreaker in.

A level 5 crossbow expert fighter will do 78 attacks in a 24 round day with 2 short rests. He will get 12 uses of precision. I would use precision on misses of 1-4. You will run out of precision on average before the end of the day, but not by much. You will turn on average 9.75 misses into hits with the 1-4 strategy. 9.75 / 12 = 12.5%. You will be gaining 12.5% chance to hit. Like I say, a 15% chance to hit estimate is a very good estimate. As you mentioned you start getting more dice and bigger dice in the level ranges we are talking about as well and so what happens is some levels you are above 15% and other levels you will be slightly lower than 15%.

At 5th level the Fighter has Precision and Action Surge, and the Ranger has Hunter's Mark and Hordebreaker. When I get time I'll take a look at that comparison over a full day. So to clarify what a day is, it's on average 2 combats of 5 rounds, short rest, 2 combats of 5 rounds, short rest, 2 combats of 5 rounds = 30 rounds of combat? Right?

As an aside, re: Precision, in play I find that Fighter doesn't always know foes exact AC, so isn't able to apply Precision perfectly (because doesn't always know how much was missed by). How much should we be docking Precision for that? We're not assuming omniscient Fighter, right?

 

[FrogReaver]

I want to point out that this is contradictory. On the one hand, you want to say that damage done to a second target doesn't count. On the other hand, you want to say that we need to switch targets and sometimes have to give up one bonus attack or the hunters mark. But... if we are switching targets then we're in all likelihood now hitting the foe that took our Hordebreaker damage earlier. So that damage counts, and at other times the Hordebreaker damage alone will slay a foe.

The reason focus fire is good is because it most efficiently reduces the number of counter attacks. Not because it is the most efficient way to reduce hit points distributed at random, across a random number of foes, to zero. Excluding Hordebreaker is framing the argument in a way that forces a single conclusion. We'd also need to exclude GFB, Sentinel triggers, Ripostes, GWM bonus attacks (on slaying foes outright)... anything that assumed more than one relevant foe. I'll continue my analysis with Hordebreaker in.


At 5th level the Fighter has Precision and Action Surge, and the Ranger has Hunter's Mark and Hordebreaker. When I get time I'll take a look at that comparison over a full day. So to clarify what a day is, it's on average 2 combats of 5 rounds, short rest, 2 combats of 5 rounds, short rest, 2 combats of 5 rounds = 30 rounds of combat? Right?

As an aside, re: Precision, in play I find that Fighter doesn't always know foes exact AC, so isn't able to apply Precision perfectly (because doesn't always know how much was missed by). How much should we be docking Precision for that? We're not assuming omniscient Fighter, right?

You explained pretty well why single target damage matters. It reduces the number of counter attacks. Given your strategy of immediately attacking the enemy you used hordebreaker on after you kill your primary target that will also help reduce counter attacks. Because of that and since most of the rangers damage is still single target I think you are right than an exception should be made for horde breaker that doesn't normally get made for aoe skills. Thanks for making such a compelling case.

That said, I'm not really sure if horde breaker will be better than colossus slayer as it feels to me like horde breaker is likely to get used far less than colossus slayer does. My initial thoughts is that hordebreaker will apply to around 33% of your turns. What are your thoughts on that?

My assumptions are 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest, 2 combats of 4 rounds each. A total of 24 combat rounds in a day and 2 short rests.

Precision use in actual play is not going to be perfect. It doesn't take very many attacks at an enemy to get a decent idea for where it's ac is. There's also repeated enemies that you have fought before and figured out their ac before. Even if you use precision in a case outside the 1-4 range it still generally has a decent chance to help. So I'd say impact is minor if you take basic queues from the game. If you can tell what kind of Armor an enemy is wearing you can about guess its AC. If you are fighting a beast its AC is generally lower like 13ish give or take a point or 2. It's not hard to guess that if you rolled a total of 10 on a beast you probably should use precision. If you rolled a 13 on a guy in medium armor you should probably use a precision etc. Since the requirement rarely comes up that you need their exact AC then a ballpark of their AC is typically good enough till you hone in on it a little closer. My guy says that 75% of precision dice should work due to this change instead of a little over 80% of them. I'm open to other suggestions though.

Good point about precision BTW.

 

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That said, I'm not really sure if horde breaker will be better than colossus slayer as it feels to me like horde breaker is likely to get used far less than colossus slayer does. My initial thoughts is that hordebreaker will apply to around 33% of your turns. What are your thoughts on that?

The best case for Colossus Slayer would be that it triggers every turn and you get at least one critical with it, for 31*4.5=139. Hordebreaker is doing 142 at 50% or 102 at 33%. Thus I suspect Hordebreaker is better because the best case for Colossus Slayer seems unlikely in play, and Hordebreaker contains potential to do more.

My assumptions are 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest, 2 combats of 4 rounds each. A total of 24 combat rounds in a day and 2 short rests.

Is that what you are seeing at the table? Mine are tending a bit longer, hence 5 rounds.

Precision use in actual play is not going to be perfect. It doesn't take very many attacks at an enemy to get a decent idea for where it's ac is. There's also repeated enemies that you have fought before and figured out their ac before. Even if you use precision in a case outside the 1-4 range it still generally has a decent chance to help.

Agreed. I've adjusted to say that 9 times out of 12 you spent the die on a miss by 1-4, and the other 3 times you are slightly off and spend one on a miss by 5.

When I extended my spreadsheet from finding average damage per round to finding the total damage difference over 30 rounds, I failed to switch from summing and dividing to only summing. It looks to me like over the entire day Ranger does about 900 damage and Fighter does about 1000. The difference is in the region of 3-6 per round, or 15-30 per combat. Lightning Arrow has the potential to give Ranger more, as does Hordebreaker. If Ranger did about 2 more damage / attack, as Revised Ranger does to Favoured Enemies, they would be exactly equal up to 10th. Which is interesting. And perhaps +4 (also from Revised) at higher levels has the same effect?

Maybe I'm wrong on Ranger having close parity with Fighter. At least not on the basis of Hunter archetype. I don't believe there is much in it, because I think at the table Ranger is going to occasionally get free shots or shots with advantage. Which makes me think: it is probably worth looking at a Beastmaster whose companion always takes the Help action. Having advantage on SS/CEx shots tends to beat out everything else hands-down.

Stay tuned!

 

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That said, I'm not really sure if horde breaker will be better than colossus slayer as it feels to me like horde breaker is likely to get used far less than colossus slayer does. My initial thoughts is that hordebreaker will apply to around 33% of your turns. What are your thoughts on that?

My assumptions are 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest 2 combats of 4 rounds each, short rest, 2 combats of 4 rounds each. A total of 24 combat rounds in a day and 2 short rests.

Okay, interesting news! Switching to Beast Master (Hawk), proves to be better than Hunter (at least for this purpose). 10th level Ranger with Longbow, taking Sharpshooter and +2 Dexterity (dropping Crossbow Expert). Uses bonus action for Hawk (AC 17, 40 HP, flying speed 60') to take the Help action every round. Matches Fighter dealing about 1000 damage over the 6 combats (30 rounds). Never needs to rest unless the bird dies (then needs 8 hours to bond with a new one). Out-ranges Fighter greatly (600').

Working through this revealed some things

• Beast Master Ranger SS matches Fighter SS/CEx for sharpshooting at levels 7-10, but is outmatched the rest of the time by Precision and Action Surge
• Below level 10 that isn't by much: Ranger SS is doing about 90% of Fighter SS/CEx
• Above level 10, that gap widens so that Ranger SS is doing about 75% of Fighter SS/CEx
• At higher levels, Ranger would need to deal about 8 damage more a hit to stay even with Fighter

I think I expect Ranger to be equal or better than Fighter at Archery. The central problems appear to be Ranger lacks scaling and has too many abilities competing for their bonus action. Placing Hex is a bonus action, moving it is a bonus action, ordering beast companion is an action until 7th level when it becomes a bonus action, Lightning Arrow is a bonus action, and of course the benefit of CEx requires a bonus action.

@FrogReaver FYC my "Once per turn" tweak to the Sharpshooter power-attack redresses this: using it, Fighter and Ranger have parity for archery.