D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

In the 1980 Darlene map of Greyhawk, the peninsula of Blackmoor has a mark indicating "Ruins".

Since 2021, I pointed out, these Ruins are in a different location − a different hex − than the Town of Blackmoor.

These are not the "ruins of the town of Blackmoor", but rather, the "ruins that are in the wider region of the Archbarony of Blackmoor".

Thus the town of Blackmoor which locates west from the Ruins, and on the coast of the southwest corner of the peninsula, still exists. Blackmoor was a modest town. Arneson himself the creator of D&D created the Blackmoor local setting. It still exists − on the Darlene map itself − even if unmarked.

Here, on an other Greyhawk map, I add more towns and terrain to detail a sense of where the sites in Arnesons campaign are in relation to the Ruins.

Remarkably, the other day, I noticed a confirmation of sorts, that my proposed location for the town of Blackmoor is, indeed, the correct location. The Ruins in the middle of the peninsula are somewhere else in the Archbarony.

Below is an inhouse map sketch that Gygax himself had done for TSR, probably in 1979, for the non-yet-published Darlene map. A friend of Gygax, Len Lakofkas, received a copy of the sketch to give feedback.

In the Gygax map sketch, here is a closeup of the peninsula of Blackmoor. You can see the town of Blackmoor marked with an "X". Its location is on the coast in the southwest corner of the peninsula.

Gygax knew exactly where the town of Blackmoor is, in relation to his Greyhawk map. When he chose to place the Ruins elsewhere, in the middle of the peninsula, this is intentional.


Gygax and Arneson were not on good terms by then. But the map of Greyhawk evolves from the earlier Great Kingdom map during the Castle and Crusades Society, that both of them are part of, and others. He mentions − heh, even if begrudgingly − the name Blackmoor to acknowledge Arneson is also part of the origins of the Greyhawk − and the origins of D&D.

Note, Gygax marks the town with an "X" rather than a dot for a town. In the Sea of Dust, there are three "(ruins)", and two are additionally specified with an "X". Probably at the time of this sketch map, Gygax intended to leave Blackmoor in ruins. Notice that the name of "Dantredun", Dant-redun, is a scrabble of "redun-Dant". Gygax intended to place a different location for the government of the remote Archbarony instead Blackmoor.

The town of Blackmoor is modest, a fishing village, with people living in the hinterland. But alongside this town is a castle, as part of the defenses against Egg the Coot. This castle is the location of a monstrous dungeon, and this castle itself was derelict at times. It was no stretch to mention that at the time of the sketch map, the castle was in ruins. Yet the village itself, the town of Blackmoor, can carry on modestly but alive and persisting.

In any case, when the 1980 Darlene map comes into existence, the "Ruins" are somewhere else, quite a distance from the town of Blackmoor. Blackmoor remains in the Greyhawk map, even if unmarked. Nostalgia players who use the original Blackmoor local setting − and D&D originalists − and the enthusiasts of the ongoing setting across the D&D editions − can continue to enjoy Blackmoor while using the 1980 map of Greyhawk.


Look here at a closeup from the 2024 map of Greyhawk. The Ruins are clearly not the town of Blackmoor itself.

The Ruins are on the southEAST, on the other side of the peninsula. Obviously not the town of Blackmoor. (It is also clearly not where the Elven city of Ringo is, which is in the middle of this peninsula.) The town itself is alive and well for DMs who wish to use the Blackmoor setting for the 2024 Greyhawk map.

The new name of the region is "Arn", an homage to Arne-son, the inventor of D&D during our 50th year anniversary of the existence of D&D. The 2024 Greyhawk map celebrates Arneson personally.

In Norse, "arn-" means "eagle", so it is a great name for place famous for its eagles.

I suspect 2024 also emphasizes the name Arn, so there is no lable called "Blackmoor" that could be confused with the "Ruins". The Ruins are a place many miles away for an adventure to save Arn! And get loot.

Today in 2024, we have a new map and a fresh new canon. We can do with this canon whatever we want. The DM is the canon. Blackmoor and Greyhawk are resources.

Using the 2024 Greyhawk map, you really can enjoy the very origins and the 50 years of D&D.

 

[Yaarel]

Both the 1980 and 2024 Greyhawk map cut off at 55° latitude as its farthest North.

For comparison, the Nordic cities of Oslo, Stockholm, and Helsinki are roughly 60° latitude. Reykjavík is roughly 65° latitude. Even København (Copenhagen) is off the edge of the map at 55°44'.

Meanwhile the Indigenous peoples of Alaska, Yukon, Northwest, and Nunavut are absent. Plus the swaths of peoples across Northern Asia.

The Greyhawk map cannot adequately represent northern cultures.

Even trying to squeeze inspiration from them into a small available area, results in an amalgam that is little more than appropriation and misrepresentation.

The Nordic peoples are a block. They have been evolving together for thousands of years, and in areas where they overlap, they intermarry. There is profound mutual influence and entanglement. One cannot have Norse without Sámi or Finlander, and so on.


Other points of reference are. The experience of the midnight sun starts at approximately 65°, specifically about 66°34' latitude and namely the "Arctic Circle". The polar icecaps are roughly around 75° but can range higher or lower depending on the regional weather pattern factors, and the frozen waters extend southward during winter.


Any D&D campaign that has northerly settings in mind, must have an understanding of what is going on northward beyond the map.

Even the Blackmoor setting which is on the map near the north mentions groups that are beyond the map, thus need a sense of who and where is far north.

 

[Parmandur]

Meanwhile the Indigenous peoples of Alaska, Yukon, Northwest, and Nunavut are absent. Plus the swaths of peoples across Northern Asia.

The Greyhawk map cannot adequately represent northern cultures.

The Flannaes are not Earth.

North of the Black Ice is an Amazonian lost world of dinosaurs.

 

[Yaarel]

The Flannaes are not Earth.

It is preferable for reallife cultures to be able to see themselves within the worlds of D&D.

It is problematic to have non-insiders depict inspirations from a reallife culture. But it is probably worse to erase reallife cultures from an earthlike world.

All cultures are inspired directly and indirectly from reallife cultures. Flan are portrayed with imagery and beliefs from the Indigenous of North America, and compare other descriptions of the Indigenous in Central America (Amedio) and South America (Hepmona). The fantasy formula is to take something familiar from reallife and combine it with a feature that is unfamiliar. All the "familiar" recognizable features are reallife. Sensitivity is always necessary when describing human (and humanoid) cultures.

The government systems and cultures and religious assumptions of Greyhawk typically derive from England and parts of Continental Europe, whence European Americans, to a point where one can almost say the Common language and English are identical. There are also inspirations from other cultures, but they tend to be peripheral, and their depictions controversial.

North of the Black Ice is an Amazonian lost world of dinosaurs.

Is there an official source for these dinosaurs?

The closest description that I can find is from the 1980 Greyhawk by Gygax, for the Land of Black Ice, which is a "highland" of mountains or plateaus or rolling hills.

"
Stranger still, they are said to tell of a warmer land beyond the ice, where the sun never sets and the jungles abound. Regardless of such prevarications, the area [of the Black Ice] is mysterious indeed.

"

Note, the reports of these "jungles" are called a falsehood ("prevarication").

In any case, the places where "the sun never sets" are the definition of the Arctic Circle, starting from 66°44' latitude and northward. Things start to get comparitively chilly from here, but there are still many humans who live at these latitudes.

The polar icecap is much farther north.

These "warmer lands" at the far north are normal, for an earthlike planet with earthlike latitudes and climates. Apparently, the Black Ice is magically colder, beyond what one expects for the latitude. But the areas outside of this Black Ice area are what one might expect for the given latitude.

The map of Oerth calls these "warmer lands" the continent of Hyperborea, and again the warmth suggests the various latitudes of Hyperborea are highly populated by humans.

 

[Parmandur]

Is there an official source for these dinosaurs?

The closest description that I can find is from the 1980 Greyhawk by Gygax, for the Land of Black Ice, which is a "highland" of mountains or plateaus or rolling hills.

"
Stranger still, they are said to tell of a warmer land beyond the ice, where the sun never sets and the jungles abound. Regardless of such prevarications, the area [of the Black Ice] is mysterious indeed.

"

Note, the reports of these "jungles" are called a falsehood ("prevarication").

I would not read too closely into how Gygax used a word thet he found in a thesaurus. Dude was smart, and a talented writer in his own way, but he often used malaphorisms, and this looks to be one to me.

The Rainbow Vale of Rigodruok was detailed in Greyhawk Adventures, and then later a bit in various articles and whatnot...but juat he Folio description makes it pretty clear that Gygax is referencing one of his personal favorite authors, Edgar Rice Burroughs, specifically The Land That Time Forgot about a polar Lost World of dinosaurs and so on.

 

[Yaarel]

The refee

I would not read too closely into how Gygax used a word thet he found in a thesaurus. Dude was smart, and a talented writer in his own way, but he often used malaphorisms, and this looks to be one to me.

Your reference to "malaphorisms" seems exactly correct, and useful to keep in mind when updating earlier Greyhawk content.

The purpose of the malaphorism to communicate a "threat" for a narrative conflict. So unlike the earlier material, an update must never construe an entire culture as a threat, but a faction from a culture can be.

The Rainbow Vale of Rigodruok was detailed in Greyhawk Adventures, and then later a bit in various articles and whatnot...but juat he Folio description makes it pretty clear that Gygax is referencing one of his personal favorite authors, Edgar Rice Burroughs, specifically The Land That Time Forgot about a polar Lost World of dinosaurs and so on.

Heh, I am sure you dont consider Greyhawk Adventures to be "canon".

In any case, I will try get the adventure since its content seems relevant to the far north of Greyhawk.

Probably, we should interpret the "jungles" of the far north to be identical with the vast subarctic boreal forests of pine trees. But even the climates of all of Europe are present in Hyperborea. I will check the latitudes, but the Black Forest of Germany might be present in Hyperborea. [Edit. Ok, not the Black Forest, but forests there above 50° can be present.

If there is a specific local setting where southerly dinosaurs are somehow magically present, that is no problem. Or if these "dinosaurs" are actually Norse dragons, the drekkar, even better.

 

[Yaarel]

Interesting, the adventure seems to call the northernmost (hyperborean) continent "Rigodruok". Thus Hyperbora and Rigodruok are two names for the same continent, presumably deriving from different cultures there or exploring there.

[Edit]: the valley is called Rigodruok. But there is a polar continent, by the name of Hyperborea. According to 1998 Greyhawk Players Guide, there are variants of the name of the polar continent, such as High Boros, and Oeridia calls it Telchuria.

 

[Parmandur]

Heh, I am sure you dont consider Greyhawk Adventures to be "canon".

In any case, I will try get the adventure since its content seems relevant to the far north of Greyhawk.

Oh, I don't view anything as "canon"...but it seems a logical extension since Gygax was laying down those pulp Lost World vibes.

I will warn you thar Hreyhawk Adventures ia...not the best 1E book.

 

[Yaarel]

Oh, I don't view anything as "canon"...but it seems a logical extension since Gygax was laying down those pulp Lost World vibes.

I will warn you thar Hreyhawk Adventures ia...not the best 1E book.

Heh I appreciate the warning.

One of the reasons I do like the Oerth map of 1996, is I can see my culture in it, or at least a location for it.

 

[Parmandur]

Heh I appreciate the warning.

One of the reasons I do like the Oerth map of 1996, is I can see my culture in it.

Greyhawk Advebtures is kind of a random grab-bag, because it is explicitly meant to be used alongside the Folio or Boxset...but it spends some time exploring areas that were left a little mysterious in the original treatment...but not drawing from Gygax particularly.