It is a delicate dance between makingt he class features of the Half Elf too good or sub-par. It's the disadvantage of a feature that automatically gets stronger as the number of options increase. I actually see it as a good sign that dual strike (a PHB power) is still a leading contender . . .
Half Elf Gone ?
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It is a delicate dance between makingt he class features of the Half Elf too good or sub-par. It's the disadvantage of a feature that automatically gets stronger as the number of options increase. I actually see it as a good sign that dual strike (a PHB power) is still a leading contender . . .
Well, that's part of the problem, isn't it? As it is, rangers have a (possibly overpowered) class feature hidden inside one of their at-wills -- to the point where it's a problem if you build a ranger who doesn't pack it, and where strikers who borrow that at-will can effectively double up on striker features (Avenger, but really true for other strikers without a 1/turn limit on their damage feature as well; anyone look at the damage on a L30 Perfect Assassin with twin strike?) to get a multiplicative effect.
Barbarians started out with this as a design feature, and got scaled back such that the full version of their at wills are now hidden inside rages.
Avenger and Rogue and Monk at-wills are perfect. But while -most- Ranger at-wills are pretty decent, Twin Strike is just too good.
* Twin Strike only works with STR or DEX.
* Avengers use WIS/DEX/INT.
* Avengers get their extra "striker damage" from the fact that they hit more often.
* Half-elf gets +CHA/CON so there is no stat help for either class (Ranger/Avenger) using Half-elf.
The best combo there is a Greatbow with the WIS/DEX build doing d12/d12, but you'll be -3 to hit compared to the most optimized character you could build (+3 proficiency and a 20 main stat). Also note that the best you could do is 16/16 to keep your main class powers viable as well as getting a stat that helps Twin Strike.
While it is powerful, I'm not convinced it's completely broken for those reasons.
* Avengers use WIS/DEX/INT.
* Avengers get their extra "striker damage" from the fact that they hit more often.
* Half-elf gets +CHA/CON so there is no stat help for either class (Ranger/Avenger) using Half-elf.
The best combo there is a Greatbow with the WIS/DEX build doing d12/d12, but you'll be -3 to hit compared to the most optimized character you could build (+3 proficiency and a 20 main stat). Also note that the best you could do is 16/16 to keep your main class powers viable as well as getting a stat that helps Twin Strike.
While it is powerful, I'm not convinced it's completely broken for those reasons.
I sat our ranger down some months ago and let him know I was nerfing (houserule) twin strike heavily. Luckily I have reasonable player who trust my judgement 
. This is our houserule.
Twin Strike
Damage:1(W)
If the first attack misses, you are allowed a re-roll. If using dual melee weapons, the re-roll is with offhand weapon.
So basically, we turned it from two attacks per round into a single attack low damage with a re-roll option.
Here is the punchline. I gave the player the option of swapping out for free (given its power dropped so dramatically), he refused and kept using it. It is STILL to this day his go-to power, even in its massively nerfed form. Even doing half the damage it did before, its ludicrous accuracy still makes it one of the best at-wills in party.
This is where it sits to me. Twin strike is, based on this experience, simply too-much for an at-will. When you nerf it to half its damage and its still top of the heap...
As to the "if you nerf it rangers wont be good any more" argument. Not our experience. Sorry, our ranger is still a very dangerous striker.
Im not speculating on this point or theorising. We have months of play experience with Twin strike in its nerfed form : Its still powerful even nerfed and our ranger is still totally viable.
To me, twin strike is the problem.
. This is our houserule.Twin Strike
Damage:1(W)
If the first attack misses, you are allowed a re-roll. If using dual melee weapons, the re-roll is with offhand weapon.
So basically, we turned it from two attacks per round into a single attack low damage with a re-roll option.
Here is the punchline. I gave the player the option of swapping out for free (given its power dropped so dramatically), he refused and kept using it. It is STILL to this day his go-to power, even in its massively nerfed form. Even doing half the damage it did before, its ludicrous accuracy still makes it one of the best at-wills in party.
This is where it sits to me. Twin strike is, based on this experience, simply too-much for an at-will. When you nerf it to half its damage and its still top of the heap...
As to the "if you nerf it rangers wont be good any more" argument. Not our experience. Sorry, our ranger is still a very dangerous striker.
Im not speculating on this point or theorising. We have months of play experience with Twin strike in its nerfed form : Its still powerful even nerfed and our ranger is still totally viable.
To me, twin strike is the problem.
Then this is the problem (other than Twin Strike just being too good). In order for this specific combo to be good too many things have to line up correctly. When a feat removes one of the requirements making it easy to accomplish it becomes pretty easy to disallow the feat (even specifically for Twin Strike).
Bob: I wouldn't go that far -- you might as well be using Sure Strike with the True Arrow Style (but without charging a feat, without giving Dex to damage and +2 to hit, without yielding combat advantage, and without requiring a ranged attack). But it's easy enough to make a Twin Strike that feels like a Twin Strike and isn't completely unbalancing (hell, just using the Assassin multiattack template would help a lot -- still get the double crit/hit chance, but at least you don't double static bonuses).
Again -- Adept Dilitante isn't the problem -- it just spreads it to a wider arena.
Avenger+Twin Strike is the poster child because Avengers have a weak (ish) striker ability that combines extremely well with multiattack powers, but Twin Strike is overpowered whether you're a singleclass ranger, a half-elf, a revenant with a half-elf soul, a monk or assassin poaching twin strike... It's just overpowered.
Avenger+Twin Strike is the poster child because Avengers have a weak (ish) striker ability that combines extremely well with multiattack powers, but Twin Strike is overpowered whether you're a singleclass ranger, a half-elf, a revenant with a half-elf soul, a monk or assassin poaching twin strike... It's just overpowered.
Kingreaper
Adventurer
I used to think Twin Strike would never get errataed.
But if they're willing to Errata the Tiefling racial power, I can see Twin Strike errata being quite plausible.
But if they're willing to Errata the Tiefling racial power, I can see Twin Strike errata being quite plausible.
I understand, what our group (/me) did was fairly drastic, and it wouldnt be everyones cup of tea. But it sure sais something when you take a power, HALF its damage output, and it still stands as one of the best powers in its category (/at-wills).
I dont think anyone can argue that Twin-Strike isnt overpowered. Too much math, too much char-op, too much debate. If it wasnt overpowered, there wouldnt be this much controversy. Some would argue that rangers *need* it, well without speculating thats not my experience : we nerfed it hard and our ranger is still cranking the damage. Besides, if a ranger *needs* it, that would imply that the ranger class has an intrinsic flaw, not that twin strike isnt overpowered.
Im totally in the "Twin Strike is too much" camp. If a nerf came from on high (/WOTC) I would happily assimilate it. The only people who would really be upset are the char-op maniacs, and I dont really pay attention to people who treat the game in such an abusive manner anyway. I like people who are rational about the rules of the game, who play the game right rather than arguing legalities, who play characters rather than a sheet full of numbers. Its these sort of players who would agree this Twin Strike hole needs to be sealed up somehow.
How? Well, Im hoping WOTC will find a way.
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