Have you been disillusioned by Eberron?

[mhacdebhandia]

No I have not fallen victim to anything. There is an implied permissiveness to the setting that turns me away from it.

There is an enormous distance between that and this:

The biggest problem with the world is that it uses everything from D&D. This means that it incorporated ALL of the power creep in the splat books.

You made the explicit claim that it "uses everything from D&D" and "incorporated ALL of the power creep in the splat books".

That's simply not true. In other words, you lied, exaggerated to the point of untruth, or were mistaken.

Besides which, the other of Wizards of the Coast's supported settings also has much more of an implied "permissiveness". Forgotten Realms sourcebooks include many things that Eberron does not: subraces galore, exalted and vile characters, high-level and epic-level events and adventuring . . .

 

[Timeboxer]

But even then, those settings seem like very different experiences to me; like a d20 Fantasy game that's not strictly D&D, while Eberron is very strictly D&D still.

Something that I'm curious about -- what would you think of the assertion that Eberron is "not real D&D"?

 

[Desdichado]

Something that I'm curious about -- what would you think of the assertion that Eberron is "not real D&D"?

That's an interesting question. I'd personally think the assertion was absurd--in my opinion the exact opposite is true. Eberron is like hyper-D&D--it's all about the D&Disms, and having them make sense in a setting.

In some ways I'm surprised that I like it; I'm generally tired of D&Disms. But seeing a setting that actually took the D&Disms into account, and built itself up fluffwise based on them turned out better than I expected. But the fact that it does do so makes the claim that it "isn't D&D" make absolutely no sense to me.

 

[Timeboxer]

Eberron is like hyper-D&D--it's all about the D&Disms, and having them make sense in a setting.

Well, I ask because the discussions I've had with my friends over Eberron disillusionment center largely upon two main things:

A) Eberron is inconsistent. Eberron is suffering from power creep, it requires careful coordination of all of the book material and the Keith Baker-provided information in order to do it "properly," it is terrible at providing context for other WotC books, its setting elements are jarring and do not fit properly together; thus, Eberron is inconsistent.

2) Eberron is not real D&D. Eberron contains robots, it includes psionics, it violates the notion of definite alignment, it violates the notion of very present deities granting spells, it violates the idea of segregated races, and other such sacred cows; thus, Eberron is not D&D.

So, I thought I'd test the waters with what people thought.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I winch any time mentions something or another mot being "real" D&D just like I do when someone states that someone else is playing the game wrong if they aren't playing the game the same way.

I've played D&D with ewoks, Wookies, nelwyns, jedi knights, psionics, gods that didn't take an active role in the setting, and so forth for years now (ever since the early days of 2E). The elements may have been different than your regular ol' boring run of the mill setting, but it was (and still is) D&D. Anyone that wants to posit differently is more than welcome to come to my game and watch us play D&D, even with Warforged, Jedi, Wookies, and psionic dragons, and tell me that I'm not playing D&D.

When will people realize that just because someone adds elements to the game that vary from the norm (and by the way, psionics have been part of the game since 1E) that it doesn't cease to be D&D? Better yet, when will people quit trying to pull that sort of elitist attitude over a fricking GAME?!?!?!? (Not saying that you are doing that Amy, you appear to just be posting questions based on a prior conversation, but there's been a lot of that attitude around the boards a lot lately.)

Kane

 

[Timeboxer]

Better yet, when will people quit trying to pull that sort of elitist attitude over a fricking GAME?!?!?!?

Have you ever been to the WotC boards? ^.^; I got the majority of this from watching the conversations there unroll as of late, too.

 

[Turjan]

2) Eberron is not real D&D. Eberron contains robots, it includes psionics, it violates the notion of definite alignment, it violates the notion of very present deities granting spells, it violates the idea of segregated races, and other such sacred cows; thus, Eberron is not D&D.

How narrow-minded. I never was and still am no friend of Eberron, but it's just not my cup of tea. But the notion that Eberron is "not real D&D" is absurd. Just look at all the official D&D settings from the 2E era and how different from Greyhawk or FR (I suppose these are meant with "real D&D") those were. Dark Sun didn't have gods, for instance. And what does "segregated races" in the age of half-storm giant/half-halflings mean, anyway?

 

[Graf]

I'd love to see more about Q'Barra -- the "lost world" feel of the place just makes me itch to run something there, and more plot hooks are always welcome for the place.

I also want more about Q'B.... though I don't know that it needs it. I see it as basically being Deadwood-in-DnD. Plunk down a crazed border town (Diamond Lake?) and you are good to go.

Karrnath is a cool place, too -- the place's "Slavic Fatalistic" feel (for lack of better terms) coupled with their views on Death and Undeath, would be fascinating to explore.

I also was getting strong Russian influences, but the prevalence of death cults, undead warriors and the war colleges has made it hard for me to nail down what it would be like. My hope is that Five Nations really drills down into it.

Talenta plains/barrens and the Halflings would be an excellent place to set some adventures with the looooooooosest of Wild West themes, especially pitting the Talenta against the Valenar and the Karrnathi (ambushes, village robberies, robberies of caravans on lizard-back, etc.)

The plains halfling thing thrills me. I think the region is super strong, both because the PCs can travel freely, the most powerful people are a clan of innkeepers, dinosaur riding is cool, and so forth. Shame its not in Five Nations.

And I've been brimming with plenty of ideas about the Demon Wastes, recently.

I found this area the hardest to grasp... It is hard for me not to see any campaign set here as "the last half hour of a Call of Cthulhu campaign, on repeat".

That's a good point. I'm currently running a Pbp game right here set in Greenblade, a little town I found on the map on the shores of Silver Lake kinda in the border areas between Breland, the Eldeen Reaches and Droaam. With a few modifications, I'm using the keyed map and description of Diamond Lake from the Age of Worms adventure path as a stand-in for the town.

This sounds very interesting. Is there an archive availible?

This would be generally accurate; the storyline and the setting are always very entwined,...

Like JD said I think we have a winner. I like the idea that the game has legs and can run and run and run and then when it ends another campaign can start in the same world and the same NPCs (or even PCs) can make cameo appearances.

-Not- to be aggressive but I feel that deciding those kinds of things in advance (its in Carceri, it will go on for a finite time, the characters will be changed, the primary themes will be freedom, and bondage) limits players abilities to help contribute to the story freely.

On the other hand... I've become a bit of a slacker as a DM. I want player input into the world, I encourage it and I try to use it to keep the game fresh and people involved. I can't do the mental heavy lifting of creating an entire themed campaign every couple of months.

I have to admit that I wouldn't include this as "Homebrewing". Taking an existing, heavily-detailed, setting (Planescape I'm assuming) and blowing up on a specific area is precisely the kind of thing that I see as standing in opposition to Homebrewing. (but that's another conversation)

So this is probably related to why I'm not into Eberron currently. It's easy to plunk down any character in Eberron. But it takes a lot of effort to inject Eberron into the characters. The same is true with plots and storylines. It's easy to plunk down a plot in Eberron. But how does it differ, in Eberron, from the plot done anywhere else? What does Eberron have to sell it?

Its funny but the reason why I'm soured on other settings right now is that anything I create for Eberron is so *tough* to move outside of Eberron.
Example: I created a hobgoblin wizard NPC (who the PCs have, unknowingly, avoided about six times). I love him, as a character, because of his family background (i.e. he is a descendent of a specific semi-famous Hobgoblin (that I made up) who did not betray House Denith when the rest of the hobgoblins did and was killed for it. I've made it a bit vague as to why this father figure fought the rebels but the point is that his son is very intently focused on the idea of honor and that his father was honorable while the rest of his race wasn't. The House has taken extremely good care of the hobgoblin's sons (partially because they want to obviously reward loyalty, partly because the son is gifted, and partially because he's a hobgoblin and they need to remain more in touch with the Hobgoblins they are stuck continuing to use for missions). So he's had the best of everything including going to the best magical colleges in Aundair, etc.
He's engaged in an almost quixotic quest for lost goblinoid artifacts (backed by the House) that would let him gain a measure of say in a new hobgoblin kingdom that he is strongly ambivalent about on a personal level.

He's not evil, he's not good, he could really be any character class, but he is very strongly motivated and, in his capacity as an extremely aggressive treasure hunter, can bump into PCs as a recurring antagonist. If he wins the first few encounters the PCs will loath him, but he represents a much more civilized world.

This character, and people like him who are motivated by connections to the merchant houses and kingdoms of the world are virtually impossible to "port" to another setting.

I think that's a really good idea, and definitely could start approaching what is different about Eberron rather than how easily it can accommodate anything. It can easily accommodate everything, and that's good. Help me instead to take the feel that is Eberron's special product and put it into my game. Help Eberron *change* the campaigns I run.

I think this really calls for a new thread.

[Edit: Added link to new thread.]

 

[Glyfair]

Well, I ask because the discussions I've had with my friends over Eberron disillusionment center largely upon two main things:

A) Eberron is inconsistent. Eberron is suffering from power creep, it requires careful coordination of all of the book material and the Keith Baker-provided information in order to do it "properly," it is terrible at providing context for other WotC books, its setting elements are jarring and do not fit properly together; thus, Eberron is inconsistent.

2) Eberron is not real D&D. Eberron contains robots, it includes psionics, it violates the notion of definite alignment, it violates the notion of very present deities granting spells, it violates the idea of segregated races, and other such sacred cows; thus, Eberron is not D&D.

The first is hard to pin down. Inconsistent? I don't see it as particularly so. Some would argue it being low in population based on the area, for example in numbers, but not seeming to be so in flavor. If you are such a stickler for population, fix it. Put the numbers in perspective. Just remember that a very bloody war (including the complete devestation of an entire country) that lasted almost 100 years ended, so those will make numbers tend on the low side.

As for the second, it's a matter of expectation. Was Dark Sun real D&D? Was Planescape? Was Spelljammer? What about Mystara (it has rocketships!)? What about Return to the Barrier Peaks (spaceships and real robots)?

"Eberron has robots" - While you can certain get inspiration for Warforged plot hooks from robots, and there are some parallels, warforged are not robots. They are living golems. Anyone who says warforged are robots just isn't looking deep enough.

"It violates the notion of definite alignment" - I think there is a slight misunderstanding about this. It violates the notion of predictable alignment. Every character has an alignment. Detect Alignment spells work the same as they do in other settings (although they can be confusing when dealing with clerics with unexpected alignments).

However, you can't predict alignment based on superficial issues. A medium level cleric of a lawful good god might actually put an entire village to the sword if he believes one is a threat to the order's belief (proving himself to actually be evil). A blue dragon that encounters the PCs could actually turn out to be good.

"It violates the notion of very present deities granting spells." - Most worlds with divine magic do have "very present deities," yes. I don't see this lack as being "not D&D."

"It violates the idea of segregated races" = What do you mean by this? I don't see Eberron being much different than any other campaign setting in this area. Non-humans certainly mix in Eberron, but the major races have their own areas where they dominate. I don't see any difference from Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.

"It includes psionics" - Psionics has been part of D&D since D&D. It's also an easily ignored or removed portion of the campaign setting. It's not as interlinked into the setting as it is in Dark Sun, as an example.

 

[Glyfair]

No way a setting should tell us to allow everything ever written.

It doesn't. The idea that "Eberron has a place for anything in D&D"* was misinterpreted. The idea wasn't that everything in D&D is in Eberron but that everything in D&D can be in Eberron (and there is a place to put it). Everything isn't throw into the campaign setting, there isn't room. However, anything you want has an appropriate place (with some backgroud tweaks, anyway).

*Yes, it's been clarified that the intent was that the statement applies to Core D&D. However, I think it applies to all the supplements with maybe a few, very specific exceptions.