Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Thanee]

This is simply not true.

"If all the above is true..."

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Well, a sorcerer can do this once every other level, hardly enough to upgrade every spell they know

I would hope a sorcerer player would know better than to make every spell at each level one that will quickly outgrow its usefulness.

But, if that is their compensation for the augmentation cost, then why do they get the much better flexibility with the PP system, (etc)

How many times to I have to spell this out to you. THEY PAY MORE. You keep asserting that paying out the nose for their powers is not total compensation, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.

have better class skills, more effective skill points per level,

Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?

gain bonus feats,

So do wizards. I won't dispute that sorcerers are underpowered, but that's the sorcerer being underpowered unless you can demonstrate that they are as effective as wizards.

gain higher power levels at one level before they should,

If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.

Those powers that the psions do get earlier are worth noting are on the specialty discipline lists. Which is nice, but a psion can normally only take advantage of one of those lists and don't get the advantages that a specialist wizards do.

can quicken spells,

But they have to choose between that or enhancing their powers, which sorcerers get for free. If they do so, they can't can't quicken and enhance them. Metapsionics is a much bigger detriment to psions than arcane caster.

What's the compensation for all that stuff then?

1) That they don't get some of those things and
2) That they have to pay a premium for scaline their powers. (Are you just trying to get me to repeat myself? Or amplify the obvious?)

 

[Scion]

"If all the above is true..."

"for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance."


This has nothing to do with that, and is still not true.

I made mention of a huge discrepancy that is still in the game, so has it destroyed the game?

Your statement is not part of the 'if the above is true' and is it completely false in its own right besides.

 

[Spatula]

and requires the caster to learn a new spell (delayed blast fireball) to reach the same potential.

Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.

The difference is that for a sorcerer, they have to learn a new high-level spell, and can replace the now-mostly-useless lower level spell. The psion's lower-level power is still useful and doesn't need to be replaced, giving him more freedom in choosing his higher-level powers (and the psion knows more powers than the sorcerer does spells, making the sorcerer even worse in comparison). A minor point, in any case.

Energy ball is customizable to all energy types; fireball is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. Energy ball grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; fireball doesn't.

And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.

The psion also gets a Heightening effect wrapped up with the augmentation of the energy powers, which makes up for having to pay to scale the damage. Adding the energy type flexibility on top of that is just gravy. Fireball fades in usefullness as you advance because it's always going to have a DC of 13+stat unless the caster spends a feat and prepares the Heightened fireball in advance (wizard) or uses his whole action to cast it (sorcerer).

IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would. Theoretical estimations of their dominance seem to rely on any or all of assigning too much significance to the flexibility of the energy powers, too little significance to the fact that psions pay the equivalent cost of higher level powers to scale them without gaining the full benefits of a higher level power (such as energy missile not gaining multiple targets when you scale it or any of the energy powers ever attaining the selective targeting of horrid wilting), or a rather generous challenge frequency.

Energy missile already affects five targets out of the gate! It doesn't need to be able to affect any more. Horrid wilting isn't an energy spell, in fact there aren't any area-effect energy spells that allow for selective targeting. If you want selective targeting with psionics, you need to look to the telepathy powers (like ultrablast).

 

[Spatula]

Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?

? Int as manifesting stat - no shortage of skill points. There really isn't any arguement about the psion's skill list being better than the wizard's and the sorcerer's.

If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.

He's talking about psions getting access to new spell levels 1 class level sooner than sorcerers (3rd level powers at 5th level psion, 9th level powers at 17th level psion, etc.).

 

[Psion]

The difference is that for a sorcerer, they have to learn a new high-level spell, and can replace the now-mostly-useless lower level spell. The psion's lower-level power is still useful and doesn't need to be replaced, giving him more freedom in choosing his higher-level powers (and the psion knows more powers than the sorcerer does spells, making the sorcerer even worse in comparison). A minor point, in any case.

If the psion is exclusively using lower level powers at higher levels, and buying higher level powers, again, they are going to have power management issues. The level that the psion acquired the power at isn't a big issue because they don't have exclusive slots; the limiting factor is, again, power points.

The ideal for the sorcerer, IME, is once they find a capped out spell is no longer of much use, they replace it with a good utility spell that does not have a cap (e.g., fly).

The psion also gets a Heightening effect wrapped up with the augmentation of the energy powers, which makes up for having to pay to scale the damage.

Again, we have an arbirtrary assertion here about what the scaling "makes up for" and I renew my estimation that it does not. Even though you ratchet up the damage of the power, you do not add to its flexibility or side effects, as adding to the introductory level of a power or spell does.

"Free heightening" is not an impressive feature, as the psion may get the benefits of it in one way, they lack the "free damage heightening" that arcane casters have.

Energy missile already affects five targets out of the gate! It doesn't need to be able to affect any more.

(checks SRD)

So it is. Nice. Got me on that one.

Well, I don't feel quite as bad about magic missile now.

Horrid wilting isn't an energy spell,

I never said it was. It is a "high level direct damage spell" that circumvents energy resistance, however. And IME, the main sorcerer damage dealer at that level, and I as such, the reason I don't buy arguments that a psion will be causing more damage per round at that level. Having seen this in action sort of drives the point home.

 

[Thanee]

Even if psions are better at direct damage is this a bad thing? I would like you to actually prove why it is a problem.

Since you cannot prove that it is not?

Well, especially for you, here's a quote from the DMG:

Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. "the above" is mostly about this discrepancy you handwave away as wrong (without any kind of proof or argument). Your "arcanists cannot cast healing spells" statenent is not a discrepancy, since they can do other things instead.

 

[Thanee]

How many times to I have to spell this out to you. THEY PAY MORE.

So they pay more to scale their low level powers to high level and get all that in return? Wow! Good deal, for sure!

Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?

In fact, yes, I do, as well as I do know about the shift to Intelligence as their prime ability, which is the reason for that "effective" up there.

So do wizards. I won't dispute that sorcerers are underpowered, but that's the sorcerer being underpowered unless you can demonstrate that they are as effective as wizards.

In my experience (which is quite extensive when it comes to playing arcanists of both types), hell yes!

Sorcerers are immensely effective characters!

They are somewhat "boring", since they don't really get much different stuff, tho it's ok after level 8 or 9, but their power level is more than fine once they get beyond the very first levels, yeah.

Wizards are slightly ahead, but not much.

If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.

You know, that this means the sorcerer. I'm sure you do.

It's one of the things you have to pay for being a spontaneous caster in the core rules. The other main ones are a huge limitation on spells known and no bonus feats. All three of those do not apply to psions (the limit on powers known somewhat, but it's a LOT less restrictive as for the sorcerer, especially if you look at the top levels, which are currently available (i.e. 3rd and 4th for an 8th level caster).

Those powers that the psions do get earlier are worth noting are on the specialty discipline lists. Which is nice, but a psion can normally only take advantage of one of those lists and don't get the advantages that a specialist wizards do.

And spontaneous manifestation isn't really much of an advantage over the wizard?

So then, just take that away, have Psions prepare their powers ahead of time, once per day they have to say in what way exactly they are going to spent their power points. I'd say, this would make them equal to wizards then.

But they have to choose between that or enhancing their powers, which sorcerers get for free.

Up to a degree, remember the caps?

Every system has upsides and downsides as explained fairly extensively somewhere above.

But these should be roughly balanced and as it stands, I'm quite certain that the downsides of psionics do not balance the upsides.

If they do so, they can't can't quicken and enhance them. Metapsionics is a much bigger detriment to psions than arcane caster.

Yeah, it is, but in turn, metapsionics are cheaper in terms of levels added, and in most cases completely unnecessary, anyways, since the important ones (for sorcerers/wizards) aren't even needed (like Still, Silent, Empower, Heighten, Energy Affinity).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would.

IME from actual play, they do.

Moreover, the preponderance of evidence would suggest that they will (RAW), for the "average" gaming group. As always, YMMV...and in Psions case, it's quite obvious it does.

Fortunately for me, my experience is as a player watching fellow players, rather than as a DM. As a fellow player, I have no qualms watching the psionicist mop-up the opposition. "Yay psionicist!...I get a share of that XP and loot, right?" As a DM, you can imagine my take is substantially different.

 

[Psion]

So they pay more to scale their low level powers to high level and get all that in return? Wow! Good deal, for sure!

You really are being obtuse, aren't you?

They pay a cost that arcane casters don't pay and are specifically designed to act as a stop gap to their other advantages. So it is not a great deal. It is... roundabout even.

In fact, yes, I do, as well as I do know about the shift to Intelligence as their prime ability,

Just like wizards. It seems like many of your examples rely on comparisons with the arguably underpowered sorcerer.

Sorcerers are immensely effective characters!

I never said they weren't effective characters. I ran a campaign up to epic levels with a single class sorcerer in the party. That's why I laugh at these assertions that a sorcerer's short term damage capacity is in any way wanting.

But it's dirty pool to pick the sorcerer as the basis for calling the psion too strong when using the same comparisons, another core class, the wizard, shines in the same area.

Wizards are slightly ahead, but not much.

And psions are slightly ahead of the sorcerer too. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

(and also why I allow enhancements from Quint Sorcerer)

You know, that this means the sorcerer. I'm sure you do.

Actually I didn't. I thought you were talking about spell/power levels, because I knew that a psion doesn't get powers any quicker than a wizard.

It's one of the things you have to pay for being a spontaneous caster in the core rules. The other main ones are a huge limitation on spells known and no bonus feats.

Which is arguably too much.

Also forget not that one of the compensations that wizards have is the ability to learn a large variety of spells and to leave slots open to utilize any of them.

So then, just take that away, have Psions prepare their powers ahead of time, once per day they have to say in what way exactly they are going to spent their power points. I'd say, this would make them equal to wizards then.

That would nerf them, and we would be back in the 3.0 boat.

That they are overcompensated is your presumption, not mine. Don't pretend to draw a logical conclusion to a premise that we do not agree on.

Up to a degree, remember the caps?

Yes, I remember it, and already discussed it. As a refresher:

1) If the cap is a problem, the sorcerer can pick a new spell (the wizard merely need not memorize it). Note that I have never seen, even at epic levels, a sorcerer dispense with magic missile.
2) Having a limited amount of free lunch is a meager limitation compared to having to pay for your lunch. It's like being told you can't leave a buffet restraunt with a plate full of food. That doesn't make a buffet not a good deal.

Every system has upsides and downsides as explained fairly extensively somewhere above.

But these should be roughly balanced and as it stands, I'm quite certain that the downsides of psionics do not balance the upsides.

And I am quite certain that they do. It seems we are at an impasse.

You want to limit psions to one energy type in your game, then by all means do. But I think that, considering how often the exact energy immunity that is your bane comes up in a game, that its impact is over estimated. Just like I feel that those who think energy substitution should take a spell level are overestimating its impact.

Yeah, it is, but in turn, metapsionics are cheaper in terms of levels added,

Do you not understand why? It needs to be, because if you made psions pay for their damage enhancement AND full cost for metapsionics, it would make metapsionics worthless.

Further, those level costs aren't just waved off. They show up in terms of psionic focus, which sharply limits the number of such feats the psion can use in a single combat and -- for that matter -- on a single power.