Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Droid101]

If the thread kindly posted by droid...

Wuh? I posted a thread where?

 

[Nail]

So would somebody explain to me how the psion is broken?

Sure, I'll bite:

Allowing Psionics (and Psions) in the game makes playing a Sorcerer (and, argueably, a wizard) a second-rate choice.

We can, at the very least, put a caveat in there: In some games, where there are 5 to 7 combats a day, and in which (paradoxically) combat is not central to the story, psionics might be acceptable.

 

[Sorren]

Sure, I'll bite:

Allowing Psionics (and Psions) in the game makes playing a Sorcerer (and, argueably, a wizard) a second-rate choice.

We can, at the very least, put a caveat in there: In some games, where there are 5 to 7 combats a day, and in which (paradoxically) combat is not central to the story, psionic might be acceptable.

So you didn't read any of my previous posts?

The psion is a useless character after roughly 2-3 encounters. During those first few encounters, the sorcerer functions only slightly worse and can continue to contribute for an additional 5 or 6 encounters if necessary.

Barbarians can fight REALLY good when they rage. Fighters can fight almost as good all the time, and they can continue to fight long after the barbarian is fatigued. Clearly fighters are broken right? After all, barbarians are a second-rate choice.

[sarcasm]Clearly psions, with their unmatched ability to become useless after two fights, are the most powerful class.[/sarcasm]

But wait! No class even comes close to their power during the first two encounters. No.... that's not right either. The sorcerer is very close to the same level of power, and depending on the dice and feat selection, could in some cases be better.


Imagine the psion's and sorcerer's contribution to various encounters on a scale of 1-10.

1st Encounter - Psion 10, Sorcerer 9-8
2nd Encounter - Psion 10, Sorcerer 8
3rd Encounter - Psion 3, Sorcerer 8-7
4th Encounter - Psion 0, Sorcerer 7

So what exactly makes him broken? Is it the fact that the psion is made useless far quicker than any other spellcaster, or the fact that, for about 2 encounters, he is, on average, slightly better than the sorcerer.

I've been playing a psion for several months now, and I can tell you from experience, unless I am playing conservatively (and therefore, not being anywhere near as effective as a sorcerer or even a wizard could be), my character is nearly useless after only two encounters.

The cleric and sorcerer are still going strong, while I'm playing the part of cheerleader.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

"Slightly"? You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Your own numbers put the psion ahead by 76 points of damage in that 11 round window. This number only increases if the two fight a critter immune to the sorcerer's energy type (I am gathering from these posts that a psion has a way to change energy types on the fly.)

I'm still not sure that the psion is the clearly superior choice, but saying they do "slightly" more damage seems to be misleading.

 

[Sorren]

"Slightly"? You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Your own numbers put the psion ahead by 76 points of damage in that 11 round window. This number only increases if the two fight a critter immune to the sorcerer's energy type (I am gathering from these posts that a psion has a way to change energy types on the fly.)

I'm still not sure that the psion is the clearly superior choice, but saying they do "slightly" more damage seems to be misleading.

Let me clarify, because I didn't make it clear in my last post. (Though I thought it was clear in the posts before it.)

A basic psion vs. A basic Sorcerer: The psion's damage output is pretty significant, around 20% better than the sorcerer's.

Now give the Sorcerer Empower Spell, and he can out perform the psion if the dice are in his favor. This is where, on average, because of his advantages such as scaling DCs and energy choice, the psion is only slightly better.

Give the psion Empower Power, things get tricky. He can possibly jump back into the lead, but he needs his focus every round, which can't be overlooked as a major drawback. I think the drawback of needing focus balances the extra damage he could do.

 

[Nail]

Again, your ignoring Save DCs, energy-type customizing, and the ability to really pump it out in only a few rounds.

As an aside: you've said your PC psion gets "nearly useless after only two encounters". I'm interested in you elaborating on that a bit. Could you bring in some examples from play? That may sway my opinion a bit.

In one of my games (a play the cleric), we have both a sorcerer and a psion. The psion is far more effective and adaptable....and he's not even a kineticist. And since we do (at most!) 3 encounters a day, the psion is never "tapped out".

 

[Thanee]

Last time I checked, my game sessions seemed playable. Enjoyable even.

Noone says, that this isn't possible. But that doesn't make the class balanced, and that's what I at least am talking about.

I can enjoy a game with unbalanced characters, too, occasionally, but I highly prefer, if the basic premise is, that the classes are more or less balanced. The psion, in my opinion, clearly stands out here.

But as I said above, I'll get back to this at a later time, when I can show a bit better what I mean.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sorren]

Again, your ignoring Save DCs, energy-type customizing, and the ability to really pump it out in only a few rounds.

I didn't ignore it at all. I don't see how you missed it.

Now give the Sorcerer Empower Spell, and he can out perform the psion if the dice are in his favor. This is where, on average, because of his advantages such as scaling DCs and energy choice, the psion is only slightly better.

Just looking at the number of damage dice rolled, a sorcerer with Empower Spell will average a little more damage (8 points), than the psion. Consider the effects of energy choice and scaling DC, and that puts the psion a little ahead of the sorcerer. He is slightly better.

The added bonus to DCs are nice, but it's only going to matter a few times in a battle. In addition, my examples use fire as the energy type, which does more damage than the other elements (except frost). If he switches energy types, it means he may very well deal much less damage.

Thus, his advantages with increased DCs and energy conversion are probably just enough to make him slightly better than the sorcerer with Empower Spell. If he didn't have those advantages, the sorcerer would be slightlybetter. (8 points better to be exact)

As an aside: you've said your PC psion gets "nearly useless after only two encounters". I'm interested in you elaborating on that a bit. Could you bring in some examples from play? That may sway my opinion a bit.

In one of my games (a play the cleric), we have both a sorcerer and a psion. The psion is far more effective and adaptable....and he's not even a kineticist. And since we do (at most!) 3 encounters a day, the psion is never "tapped out".

That makes me question the tactics your party sorcerer uses. In our last session, we had a side quest where we entered some mines that had been taken over by bandits, thieves, and some yuanti.

Over the course of two encounters (about 8 rounds each) and several energy missles, mind thrusts, and astral constructs later, I was down to 7 power points. I had that many because I was being conservative. I spent about four rounds or so doing nothing more than cheering for my teammates.

No other character were standing still, I can assure you of that.

The highlight was when I smashed a bandit with a barrel full of flour with telekinesis and killed him.

The other was a cool use of Control Object where I made a table some bandits were sitting at spring to life and attack them.

All in all, I would say I was about as effective as a sorcerer of my level. Maybe a little better. I contributed heavily to the encounters, but it wiped me out. A sorcerer could have easily gone through at least one or two more encounters. He wouldn't have been at peak performance of course, but he would have at least still been active.

 

[Psion]

Noone says, that this isn't possible. But that doesn't make the class balanced, and that's what I at least am talking about.

I can enjoy a game with unbalanced characters, too, occasionally

Well yeah. I played a 12th level wizard in a 5th level party. It was fun. It was a departure from the norm. But if you told everyone they could play 12th level wizards or 5th level fighters, the trend would be obvious.

The players may have resented it and it might have been a task for the GM to balance, but they were willing to do so because I had not had a chance to play my character since I was GMing their companions most of the time.

Being balanced is not about enjoyable games being possible. It's about whether the game is enjoyable as a matter of course. Is it convenient and does it minimize resentment among the players.

The situation IME is that, re: psionic characters and other classes, there is no such trend. There is no difference in powered so pronounced that every reasonable player is choosing psions over other classes or feeling resentful about the psion's presence, nor do I see the psion "carrying the load" or being the solution to all problems the party is presented with. It's just not happening.

So AFIACT, it is meeting the intent of "balanced", is ergo balanced.

 

[two]

Advantages of Hitting Fast, and Hard

Sorren's analysis is leaving me rather ho-hum, if only because I think he's underestimating the power of doing lots of damage fast.

If the Psion can put down high DC, energy-specified, target-specified, save-specified boom on opponents, and do in three rounds what it would take a socerer to accomplish in 5 (for example), that's very significant.

Because it means that the stuff the Psion is trying to kill dies faster, thus:

1) The party cleric does not have to waste healing spells as quickly, because the enemy didn't get a chance to do as much damage.
2) Other party casters save more of their spells, becuase the enemy dropped faster.
3) Other party resources are not used up as rapidly (rages for barbarians, etc. etc.).

I see this all the time in practice. We don't play with Psions, but we do have some high damage-output PC's, who can do a lot of BOOM but not very often per day. That's ok, because when they do go BOOM, the rest of the party doesn't squander many of their resources. It's better for the party, overall, than if we all spent our 30% of resources each battle (individually). Because by fight 4, (in the very rare instance when this happens), the clerics and casters still have spells to sling - even if the BOOM characters don't shine, they make the party stronger as a whole for keeping resources safe.

And of course there might not be a fight 4 or 5 that day, in which cast all those saved up spells count for nothing.

Also, not to be forgotten! If the party is getting whaled on, and a PC or two is close to dying, you definately DON'T want a PC that can do a lot of damage over the long term. Not needed. You DO want a PC that can take out the injured baddies, right now. The party resources saved by stopping a PC death can't be overestimated, and this is something that mass/fast BOOM can help with.

I'm not really on a side here. Just wanted to point out that having the option to do lots of damage very fast is a very powerful option. In D&D where attack is easier than defense (in general)...those who hit harder often last longer.

It's the difference between Melf's Acid Arrow and, well, Scorching Ray. Sometimes you just need stuff dead, immediately.