Help me grock the warlock

[On Puget Sound]

Awesome post, Mengu! Consider making a stickied "Player's Guide to Warlocks" thread with this as first post. It helped me see some tactical implications of powers I had not consciously considered.

 

[Iron Sky]

Our party has one of each striker and a cleric. While it may be in part due to good stats and generally good rolls on his part, the warlock has been probably the most effective member of the group. I think a key is multiclassing Ranger to get stealth and that little extra damage from two rounds of quarry.

Every round, our warlock curses something new, moving wherever he needs to go to do it(and often dissapearing thanks to his move-granted concealment). He's fey pact with improved fey step as his 2nd level feat(we're 2nd level), so when anything dies, he teleports 5 and, due to 3+ squares of movement hides again.

He has more hp than my TWF ranger, his AC is about the same as the rogues(since he usually has concealment), he's targetting weak defences, usually with a +2 bonus due to being hidden, unlike my ranger and the rogue who are targetting mostly AC.

His survivability is amazing: near-constant concealment, auto-stealth checks every round, great hp, amazing mobility, especially when we're fighting minions, eyebite when he "pulls aggro." His damage is usually on par our outpaces my dual bastard-sword wielding twin-strike ranger. The rogue far outdamages anyone else when he gets CA, but he gets the trade-off of going bloodied (at least once) pretty much every fight, as does my ranger since we're up in the thick of it far more than the lock is.

He also has the advantage of not needing Quick Draw - a key for the weapon-juggling we've had to do since we have no defender and have to switch between ranged and close frequently in some of our fights.

I'd say damage output is something like this(not hard numbers, estimates from our last session):

Ranger: Main weapons +1 Terror Bastard sword, mundane longbow. Avg ~13-15 damage. Max damage dealt(bear trap + quarry) about 25.
Rogue: Main weapons +1 Vicious hand crossbow, mundane dagger. Avg ~12-13 damage w/out CA, about 23 with CA. Max damage dealt(sly flourish dagger crit w/ SA) about 30.
Warlock: Weapon: none. Avg ~11-13 damage. Max damage 46(flames of phlegethos crit w/ hunter's quarry).

 

[loisel]

The Warlock has a DPR which is lower than most other classes. This has been analyzed in a couple of threads, but I point you to my thread, which has a detailed numerical analysis:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234620

Briefly, at Level 1, you can expect a DPR of 6-9 for a typical 15-20 AC (that counts everything: curses, crits, the fact that you target reflex, everything). By comparison, a Halfling Rogue, Elf Ranger or Maul Fighter will get 10-13DPR. They'll be outdamaging you by 50% or more.

Another thread that says essentially the same thing is

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4399004

The Warlock is one of the lowest damage characters. The only thing that's worse than a Tiefling Lock for DPR against a single foe at Level 1 is something like an Elven Cleric. A Wizard using Magic Missile is also worse, but a Wisdom based Wizard using Cloud of Daggers, or any AoE, will outdamage you.

So, don't play the Warlock for DPR. You will lose. You can play a Warlock "'cuz it's cool", but not for DPR.

EDIT: for max damage, your Ranger should go twin scimitars at Level 11, plus the Scimitar Dance, and he should become a Stormwarden. That's the highest single-foe DPR in the game.

 

[DracoSuave]

One simple fact that has gone unnoticed about the warlocks is the design methodology for their at-wills.

You always have Eldritch Blast, which, if you have an 18 in your primary stat is only one or two points short of Twin Strike in terms of damage potential.

However.... that's not what makes you special.

Your -other- at will does less damage for sure, 1d6-base as opposed to 1d10... but unlike -any other striker-, you get an additional effect that in one way or another discourages further attacks enemy you just zotted.

Fey Pact makes you -invisible- to the enemy. This gives you +2 to hit them next round from Combat Advantage (something NO other striker at-will guarantees on a hit) and allows for you to potentially flank them at close range to give others the same Combat Advantage with little risk to yourself (barring close burst abilities of course), and allowing you to get +1 from Prime Shot against foes in melee with your dudes.

Infernal Pact gives you a blast, and then if you take damage by any means you get another blast for free. This makes it potentially more damaging than Twin Strike in the right circumstances. Combine this with the fact that you can -take- more damage due to the obscene number of temp hps your abilities give you, means you can doubledip on your damage rolls like a ranger.

Star Pact gives you the blast, and then makes soldiers, skirmishers, and brutes face a difficult decision. If they stay at range, they do not get their offense against you. If they close, they'll take more damage than they bargained for. Toss in some forced movement, and you'll find Star Pact isn't lacking on the damage when the enemy's deciding safety is no longer their concern.

With both Infernal Pact and Star Pact, you must concider that there will be situations where you're not getting the double damage. These situations are usually tactically in your favor anyways, because now you're not just blasting the enemy, you're controlling them and forcing them to hold off from their own large attacks, while -still- getting a decent amount of damage in there.

Your -at-wills- with the exception of Eldritch Blast give you defensive options that other strikers simply do not have without delving into daily utility abilities, and -because- they are at-will, you can dip into them whenever you want.

You're giving up a couple points of damage in return for making your enemies make tactical decisions that benefit you. This is the strength of the Warlock.

 

[DracoSuave]

Briefly, at Level 1, you can expect a DPR of 6-9 for a typical 15-20 AC

Minimum damage for a warlock's weakest blast is 7 damage. That's with a 10 in the primary attribute.

The least damaging one is Eyebite, which when it hits, gives you +2 to your next hit against the same enemy.

I don't think you -did- take everything into account with the Warlock.

 

[theNater]

The Warlock has a DPR which is lower than most other classes. This has been analyzed in a couple of threads, but I point you to my thread, which has a detailed numerical analysis:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234620

Briefly, at Level 1, you can expect a DPR of 6-9 for a typical 15-20 AC (that counts everything: curses, crits, the fact that you target reflex, everything). By comparison, a Halfling Rogue, Elf Ranger or Maul Fighter will get 10-13DPR. They'll be outdamaging you by 50% or more.

I'm just working off of your charts here, but I notice that Hellish Rebuke is not included in the level 1 chart. The level 11 at-will chart has the warlock well ahead of the fighters and wizards, even if he's towards the low end of the strikers. And at level 20, the crossover point between the warlock and the fighter is at a 33 AC, which is about what the DMG says the defenses of a 20th level monster should be, so that warlock isn't being outdamaged by the maul fighter.

Another thread that says essentially the same thing is

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4399004

The Warlock is one of the lowest damage characters. The only thing that's worse than a Tiefling Lock for DPR against a single foe at Level 1 is something like an Elven Cleric. A Wizard using Magic Missile is also worse, but a Wisdom based Wizard using Cloud of Daggers, or any AoE, will outdamage you.

I did get into the actual spreadsheet that led to those charts, and I am having a hard time trusting the conclusions given that the warlock involved starts with an 11 con and a 12 cha, and is firing 1d10 damage Hellish Rebukes.

So, don't play the Warlock for DPR. You will lose. You can play a Warlock "'cuz it's cool", but not for DPR.

Or, y'know, you can play it for DPR with the recognition that you're not going to be beating the other strikers on DPR, but are going to be doing plenty, and will also have a handful of control type effects.

EDIT: for max damage, your Ranger should go twin scimitars at Level 11, plus the Scimitar Dance, and he should become a Stormwarden. That's the highest single-foe DPR in the game.

Yup, if all you care about is damage when engaged in one-on-one combat, that's the way to go. Of course, if you're interested in group vs. group combat, the ability to make a foe grant combat advantage to all of your allies for a round can be pretty handy.

 

[Mengu]

Fey Pact makes you -invisible- to the enemy. This gives you +2 to hit them next round from Combat Advantage (something NO other striker at-will guarantees on a hit) and allows for you to potentially flank them at close range to give others the same Combat Advantage with little risk to yourself (barring close burst abilities of course), and allowing you to get +1 from Prime Shot against foes in melee with your dudes.

The least damaging one is Eyebite, which when it hits, gives you +2 to your next hit against the same enemy.

I think you're missing the part where Eyebite says "you are invisible to the target until the start of your next turn." So, no CA unless you are spending an action point, or getting a free attack from a Warlord before the start of your next turn.

Of course, you can always try to use Stealth for CA, though one thing to keep in mind is whenever you move more than 2 squares, you take a -5 penalty, so make sure you are trained (as mentioned earlier, Ranger multi-classing is a good option). Being a Tiefling and/or grabbing skill focus may be a good idea too if you wish to employ this tactic reliably, since Dexterity won't be your best stat (unless you're a Halfling which is a decent option). Also grab Sylvan Armor if and when you can.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Warlock doesn't lose that much if they dump int for dex.
Halfling is an obvious choice to do that with ...

As well, the -5 penatly for movement disappears in Paragon tier when you pick up Secret Stride.

Stealthlocks can be very scary, but ... if only we know exactly how stealth works.

 

[Mengu]

I just noticed the other thread about stealth, so what I've said in my previous post is all null and void. Apparently Concealment + Stealth doesn't work, per stealth description in compendium.

 

[Runestar]

Minimum damage for a warlock's weakest blast is 7 damage. That's with a 10 in the primary attribute.

The least damaging one is Eyebite, which when it hits, gives you +2 to your next hit against the same enemy.

I don't think you -did- take everything into account with the Warlock.

It is probably averaged out to account for the possibility of missing. So average minimum damage should be lower than minimum damage (which assumes that you always hit).