Help with a 30th Level Monk

[Rystil Arden]

The rules are against your strawman, which has no relation to me. Try again.

Nope. You are giving the character free wishes. The VoP character has exactly the resources of a level 3 character to purchase stuff. A normal level 30 character has a whole lot more. In exchange, the VoP character gets power. But no more resources. Your character does not have the resources. So where are they getting the wishes? For free. You say, "But I arbitrarily wrote it in my history that I got free wishes." That's still free. You have allowed 30 free arbitrary wishes. "But I randomly decided that someone wanted to give them those wishes based on my history." That is still free. You could also write up a history that says that someone gave your cleric a +12 periapt of wisdom for free because he liked you. Doesn't mean it happens if you don't have the money. And why stop at 30 wishes? Why not 100? 1000? 10000? You are giving them for free based on what's written in the background, so where's the limit?

 

[Rystil Arden]

they dont spend their allowed wealth on anything else anyway.

No, they do not have the baseline wealth to spend. Because they swore a Vow of Poverty.

 

[Scion]

Nope. You are giving the character free wishes. The VoP character has exactly the resources of a level 3 character to purchase stuff.

I am afraid you are again making up rules and strawmen to try to knock down.

I'll stick to the raw, if you wish to make up your own rules feel free, the houserules section is next door.

The vop character does not, in any way, shape, or form, have the resources of a 3rd level character to purchase stuff. This is only yet another thing you have made up wholecloth.

If you do not have the book I can try to post some of the relevant text later. Just let me know.

No, they do not have the baseline wealth to spend. Because they swore a Vow of Poverty.

Please stop making up rules. Pretty please? sugar on top?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I am afraid you are again making up rules and strawmen to try to knock down.

I'll stick to the raw, if you wish to make up your own rules feel free, the houserules section is next door.

The vop character does not, in any way, shape, or form, have the resources of a 3rd level character to purchase stuff. This is only yet another thing you have made up wholecloth.

If you do not have the book I can try to post some of the relevant text later. Just let me know.



Please stop making up rules. Pretty please? sugar on top?

Please stop saying false things, particularly ad hominem attacks. The interesting thing about your last post is that every single assertion you made (not counting the second to last line which isn't an assertion) is demonstrably false. I'm just hoping that you are just very very misguided in these beliefs because I'd like to think that nobody would lie this much just to try to win an online argument he picked.

Bront: I apologise to you for being unable to help you any more in this thread, but if you like, you have my hotmail and my new gmail. I did not come here to argue or clutter up the thread, and unfortunately, this guy is trying to do just that, so I simply won't be reading here any further.

 

[Scion]

Please stop saying false things

You make up rules and strawmen and then say that 'I' am the one making the attacks? Whatever guy.

Like I keep saying, it depends on the campaign, but it is well within the rules. if you ever find a rule against it feel free to post it.


Hey bront, I am sorry as well. Should've taken this to pm's a long time ago ;/

But, you are free to have the spell cast on you, so the raw has your back, as does your dm apparently, so I am not sure why he was fighting so hard to break the rules ::shrugs::

 

[RandomPrecision]

Hmm...maybe you could explain what the strawman is? Rystil is going by the rules on everything. I think it's odd that you would let a VoP character get extra things because he's poor, when characters with wealth can't afford the same things. Perhaps you could explain why, without hand-waving and wish-granting?

If a 3rd-level character takes VoP, any magic items that he used prior to this would have to be made with the wealth of a 3rd-level character (or, one could argue, 2nd-level character). I don't recall exactly how much a +5 book costs, but I seem to remember it being out of the range of a 2nd or 3rd level character. And the VoP monk won't buy it after he takes his vow, so I don't know where you think the inherent +5 bonuses are coming from.

 

[Scion]

He has a few different ones. one is about a bonus that others dont/cant get (false), another is about an unlimited supply of wishes (false), another is about free wishes (false), another is that the vop character cannot 'pay' for the spell to be cast (this one is also false, it depends on what you mean by pay. He could do favors and someone blesses him, without him asking for it of course, or a friend could pay for it, or any number out of an unbounded number of different scenarios) and his list goes on and on.


To me the whole arguement boils down to this: Can you cast a spell on the vop character? Yes, nothing against it, doing him a favor in this case.

So, there is nothing against him having the spell on him. If someone wants to come up with raw that says the vop character cannot have spells cast on him go for it, but I think that would hinder the vop character much more than he already is.

 

[RandomPrecision]

He has a few different ones. one is about a bonus that others dont/cant get (false), another is about an unlimited supply of wishes (false), another is about free wishes (false), another is that the vop character cannot 'pay' for the spell to be cast (this one is also false, it depends on what you mean by pay. He could do favors and someone blesses him, without him asking for it of course, or a friend could pay for it, or any number out of an unbounded number of different scenarios) and his list goes on and on.

That all comes down to the fact that you think the VoP character should be able to have a spell cast on him without the VoP character paying. First of all, that's unfair to characters that do have to pay, and secondly, that wasn't the issue - the issue was about using tomes.

To me the whole arguement boils down to this: Can you cast a spell on the vop character? Yes, nothing against it, doing him a favor in this case.

We know VoP characters can have spells cast on them (they're not that powerful), but the debate was whether or not they'd be able to use ability-increasing tomes, not have spells cast on them. Further, they'd have to pay to have spells cast on them. Anything else is unfair. Consider this - my character in this campaign doesn't have a Vow of Poverty, and he couldn't start with +5 to all stats. Of course, if you think he could, for the same reasons that the VoP characte could (which is all backstory), then I shall do so, and also buy tomes of ability increase for perhaps +10 to all stats.

So, there is nothing against him having the spell on him. If someone wants to come up with raw that says the vop character cannot have spells cast on him go for it, but I think that would hinder the vop character much more than he already is.

I can find prices for spellcasting and services in the RAW. You seem to be stating that these aren't necessary, but I'm taking the rules more literally, it seems.

 

[Nail]

I can find prices for spellcasting and services in the RAW.

Exactly. However you get the wishes, you must pay for them during PC creation. A VoP PC has nothing to pay with. Ergo......

 

[Scion]

That all comes down to the fact that you think the VoP character should be able to have a spell cast on him without the VoP character paying.

You have said this repeatidly, but just because you can repeat it over and over does not make it true. It is still just as false now as when you first said it.


Also, if you want to discuss tomes feel free, I have not been discussing a vop useing tomes at all, at any time. Another strawman you have come up with. I did say that having the bonus on them should count against their wealth as though they had used a tome, but that is no where near the same thing.

Vop characters have the same wealth guidelines as anyone else, one of their feats say that they cannot gain material objects and gives bonuses to compensate. So, the character normally cannot use any of this personal wealth. However, the bonuses are 'not' items, it does 'not' take items to get the bonuses, and at no time would the vow be broken by getting or having them.

I can find prices for spellcasting and services in the RAW. You seem to be stating that these aren't necessary, but I'm taking the rules more literally, it seems.

So lets see here. Lets say that the king wants to grant a boon to each of the party members for some service rendered. He gives each of the party memebers an item of some value. What you are saying here is that the characters must pay the king for the item in order to get it.

Nope, I dont buy it. That doesnt make any sense regarding the rules or how the game is normally played. In the example above you could easily replace 'item' with 'spell' or whatever else you like.

There are price guidelines for what npcs normally charge to cast a spell, this is true. There are also guidelines for equipment.

However, it is possible to mitigate these costs in other ways, or pay in different ways, not all payments are in coin.


Say that the character had been donating his share of the treasure to his church for his entire carear. Over the course of say 30 levels he has given them the equivalent of 50 million gp worth of treasure. As a reward for his noble sacrifices to their cause, including monetary wealth, they decide to grant him a +5 inherant bonus to each of his stats.

Does this seem plausible? Feasible? There are costs, lots of them. Every character 'could' get this boon given the proper circumstances, but not many will choose to do so.


Just because someone does not have money to pay with does not mean that payment cannot be made in some form or another. Again, barter is possible. Again, favors happen.


If you wish to hand wave it away by saying, 'but he cant hold coins!' that is your deal. I dont give the character a pile of X amount of money and say, 'ok, now find merchants to buy things from', I give them a set amount of exp and the guidelines in the dmg. If a character spends some feats to disallow items fine, if this allows him to use all of his character wealth (virtual though it may be) on some things that are not items great, but they had better be a good reason for it in his background.


Character wealth is not all about the times or money or those such things. It is a general guideline about how much extra power one can have and there are guidelines about how to 'spend' it. Just because the character has never touched a gold piece in his life does not mean he cannot have items of value, just like it does not mean he cannot have some spells on him.