How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[blargney the second]

Hell, even a "Hey, what's your build plan, so I can sync up with it?" could even work - and if the player doesn't really know, you can start asking other questions.

This is a fantastic idea, in my opinion. It presupposes that he knows what he's doing, and gives him an easy out to admit if he doesn't know a thing. Win-win!
-blarg

ps - It doesn't seem to be the case here, but bear in mind that there is a certain type of gamer that actually wants their character to suck. I've run into outliers like that before, and I've concluded that you really just have to let them do their thing.

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

It's not his choice at all. It's a group game. Being the lone-wolf chaotic neutral my way or the highway "I'M TEH ROLE PLAYA!!!!!11!" type is disruptive and annoying.

Which as was shown in another thread is fine if that's what the group dynamic is all about, but most people think such people are just selfish dicks.

It is his choice to make the character as he see's fit, not yours nor anybody elses... its his choice. You have zero right to tell him that his choice sucks. Now, after a session or two, and he's not finding his nitch, or he's not doing that well, then the only person you can tell is the DM, and the DM can tell the other player about it and give that player some advice on his character.

You as another player, though, you have no right to blatantly think that about his character. You play yours, he plays his. Period, end of discussion.

God its thinking like this and the arrogance that comes along with it with some people that ruin games for others.

Now if said player comes to you and asks you for advice, you can give him advice and possible suggestions, and then its up to him to take it or not.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Honestly guys, is there any reason to start bashing other forms of gamers? I played AD&D, 2E, 3E, 3.5, 4E, the old silver and gold boxed TSR D&D PC games, UO, EQ, WoW, and tons of other games (RPGs, CRPGs, CCGs, MMOs, board games, etc etc).

In my opinion, taking shots at other editions and games stoops to a similar level of elitism as someone telling another their character sucks and should be optimized more.

For the record, as someone with an active WoW account, I completely think he's fine with a 14. He might struggle more with ultra-high AC enemies, but luckily there are other people in the party that would likely would have to be relied on to hit it anyway, even if he had another +1 or +2 to hit.

I'm not bashing other forms of games. I also play WOW (and really enjoy it) which is why I'm so familiar with this type of thing. I'm bashing the kind of attitude that would give someone the nerve to try and dictate how someone else would create and run thier characters in any game.

 

[S'mon]

so an elvin swordmage has a 16 int at best
a dwarven fighter has a 16 str at best
a hafling wizard has a 16 Int at best
a half elf rouge has a 16 Dex at best

how do any of them get 18's... inless you are saying that each race can ONLY be less then 1/3 of the classes????

They use the standard point buy system, or the auto-assign-stats feature of the character builder software. Both can/will give them an 18. Not as good as the human Fighter's STR 20, but ok.

 

[Goonalan]

Every time I read threads like this I start to feel like I'm an idiot and don't know anything about the game, or else I just don't care enough...

I'm a DM, I was a player for five or so years- didn't much care for it, DMing now over 20 years.

I play via Maptools and Skype, see sig for game.

Some of my players have less than optimised characters, we've played through all the H series and are approaching P1.

I've never really looked at my players character sheets (more or less ever- in 20 years), I play with grown ups- that's their job.

I've never sat down and worked out how to optimise anything, I've never thought to do so, don't know if my players have...

Have I been doing it wrong all along, allowing my players to under-perform, is there some to be adhered to group instruction I've failed to heed- should I cull the weak in the group.

Pull their weight, a team game- well yes, at times, but try telling Lucan our Rogue who phased into the treasure chamber during the big boss fight and emptied all (and I mean all) of the money into his Bag of Holding, while the remaining five players battled for their lives against hordes of villains and the big bad. The striker spent the remainder of the bloody fracas dozing till it was over.

And yes their were repercussions, but that was roleplay, and some raised voices, but... He was roleplaying, it's a roleplaying game and he was playing entirely within character. Obviously he's only tried it once or twice- in a year and a half of play, for obvious reasons.

I don't want optimised, I want characters that are unforgetable-

The Dwarven Priest of Moradin using a live crocodile as a sort of floating battering ram (after burying his Chainsaw of Moradin in the creatures brain).

The Dwarven Fighter (Int ? Wis ? Ch ? All below 12) Bluffing his way in to see the Duergar Chieftain with tales of the Grimmerzhul sleeping with his sister.

And on it goes.

Some people may have to roll dice and that to get their kicks, and don't get me wrong, it's fun for a while, but you're making a narrative- and the rules are... well, there are no rules (I know about the books I just've not got round to reading them much).

The story is everything, and that's what I do, with a lot of help from my players.

Optimise, you're worrying about nothing- size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it.

To address the OPs point.

Tell the DM if you want, otherwise just get on with it and have fun, you sound like you've got a touch of swordmage-envy; what is a sword-mage anyway? Sorry, as I say, only been playing the game 25+ years.

One of my players didn't like his character- I let him rebuild him (he was a 9th level Rogue, he's now a 9th level Monk) I fixed the narrative of course, just like I did when one of the players discovered he was in fact a killer-robot-dwarf, basically anything goes... It's just a game etc.

Cheers Paul

 

[kenmarable]

Feel free to bring this point up again when we are discussing an Int 10 swordmage. At 14 versus 18, I don't even consider this a relevant consideration.

Not to mention it's kinda irrelevant given the fact that the OP originally asked for advice on how to talk to a fellow player but the thread fell into this same rules/game style preference discussion that's been regurgitated probably over a dozen times since 4e was released (and who knows how many times it came up in 3.x days as well).

We really need to sticky an index to these debates that keep reappearing every month or two and save EN World some bandwidth and server space.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Let's make some examples of how long a average fight takes with different stats.

AC 16 was calculated as the average AC of mobs in keep on the shadowfell.
I am assuming 25 hp pr monster
I am assuming that one PC has one monster to kill every level N combat.
I am assuming no feats that increase damage/to-hit for any of the characters

14 stat longsword = +5 to hit or 50% hit chance, 1d8+2 damage or 6.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 3.25, average rounds = 25/3.25 = 7.7 rounds

16 stat longsword = +6 to hit or 55% hit chance, 1d8+3 damage or 7.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 4.1, average rounds = 25/4.1 = 6.1 rounds

18 stat longsword = +7 to hit or 60% hit chance, 1d8+4 damage or 8.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 5.1, average rounds = 25/5.1 = 4.9 rounds

20 stat longsword = +8 to hit or 65% hit chance, 1d8+5 damage or 9.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 5.1, average rounds = 25/6.1 = 4.1 rounds

A fight with a 14 stat character lasts more than 50% as long as a fight with a 18 stat character and nearly 100% longer than a fight with a 20 stat character.

 

[Goonalan]

Let's make some examples of how long a average fight takes with different stats.

AC 16 was calculated as the average AC of mobs in keep on the shadowfell.
I am assuming 25 hp pr monster
I am assuming that one PC has one monster to kill every level N combat.
I am assuming no feats that increase damage/to-hit for any of the characters

14 stat longsword = +5 to hit or 50% hit chance, 1d8+2 damage or 6.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 3.25, average rounds = 25/3.25 = 7.7 rounds

16 stat longsword = +6 to hit or 55% hit chance, 1d8+3 damage or 7.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 4.1, average rounds = 25/4.1 = 6.1 rounds

18 stat longsword = +7 to hit or 60% hit chance, 1d8+4 damage or 8.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 5.1, average rounds = 25/5.1 = 4.9 rounds

20 stat longsword = +8 to hit or 65% hit chance, 1d8+5 damage or 9.5 avg, avg damage per attack = 5.1, average rounds = 25/6.1 = 4.1 rounds

A fight with a 14 stat character lasts more than 50% as long as a fight with a 18 stat character and nearly 100% longer than a fight with a 20 stat character.

Apologies in advance but if anyone tried to show me the above before I had started playing D&D I would have run a mile. I understand that to play the game you need to kill some bad guys but it's a roleplaying game first and foremost, regardless of edition.

Are you saying that a 14 for prime stat is a bad thing- shouldn't be done, or are you saying... look at the consequences, the fights (subject to the law of averages) are going to take longer, if so- who really cares as long as people are having fun.

I don't want to sound too caustic (if at all), I love the maths but I just don't understand what the problem is.

Is a score of 14 for Int on one PC preventing people from playing a game and having a laugh doing so...

Sorry again, but all this just reads like madness, I don't recognise the game described in some of the posts above, or else barely.

PS My most memorable character (when I was a player) AD&D I think was generated with roll 4d6 take best three and his highest stat was a 15, multi-classed Cleric/Wizard/Rogue- I think. He memorised no offensive spells (ever) and would generally get through things by being much smarter than the average goblin/kobold/bugbear/mind flayer; or else by having a no-necked brainless lug do all his fighting for him. When the no-necks needed someone to charm the pants off the Jarl then I was the go-to guy, same with healing- the price for which was keeping me safe, same for finding the traps etc...

My brother played Boron the Illusionist in the same party- we still laugh and tell tales about him to this day (over twenty years later- we don't remember any of the 'optimised' characters with their 18 Str & 18 Con). Other than a high Int his stats were all below 10 (that's how it was back then with us), and we rolled our HP and 1's counted. Boron was utterly crap, and yet made something like 8th level before the joke wore thin. He famously hid under a cart full of the parties treasure (that's also how we were back then) while a Red Dragon attacked him, just him- the rest of the party were battling the Red Dragons twin elsewhere. Boron saved every time- got out from the incinerated cart, robes on fire- Dragon swoops around for next pass, and flings his dagger- natural 20- roll crit to confirm, natural 20 again- roll on DMs own designed crit table 00- instant death.

Illusionist Level 8, wearing purple robes, loon pants, gold curly-up slippers and armed with a +1 Dagger flings said dagger and slays Red Dragon...

You figure the odds.

That's why I play- not for the one in a million chance but because it's a fantasy game, and your characters can do/try anything.

My point, and apologies if I'm picking on you- I'm not, the game gets played a thousand different ways by a thousand different people, the result- killing the monsters, solving the puzzle, getting the girl whatever is important, but the journey, the journey is everything.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've got a player that acts this rudely towards others' choices. Telling someone that their character sucks is no way to behave.

Ensure that the player makes an informed decision, but don't add a value judgement to it. It's in his interest to make an informed decision. It's fair and correct to offer it to him. Insulting him is not in his interest and not fair.

Of course, if a problem player stays a problem player - in however we define problem players for our personal games - you can still give him the boot.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I remember my brothers halfling fighter with 2 daggers doing all the rogue work until he decided to multiclass...

i remember the optimized boe ranger finding an intelligent longsword and going rampage in melee

I remember the cleric writing a prayer to receive spells earlier

I remember my pyromantic tinker gnome going descending into drow filled darkness with a song on his lips

I remember the party fighting a lich and the barbarian drinking his potion of haste, going into rampage and then RUN

I remember the mage doing the killing blow against the evil priest with a crit from his thrown lamp, because he didn´t know what else to do

And I have yet to see a character advancing into his "chosen" prestige class... because a played character evolves so differently than how its planned, that you will most certainly never reach that class...

I believe a 14 in int for a swordmage is no brlliant idea in 4th edtion in general... especially when the DM likes to fight against the players and all other characters are one sided... It is just, that the Int attribute is doing so much for a swordmage
(like int was important for a ADnD wizard)

In a game, where the DM plays with the players, and every player is an individual instead of part of a group, 14 in main stat won´t break the game... really...

You should however consider making his stats fit better by multiclassing into a strength based class