How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[rjdafoe]

As for those insinuating that this is a MMO mindset, the first time I was in a group that got rid of a character because it was weak/useless was 14 years ago, 5 years before the release of Everquest, the first serious raiding mmo. Powergamers have always existed, it's just considered to be less of a sin these days.

I am not ininuating anything. I clearly said IMO.

I also never said Powergamers did not exist. I said that since EQ, it has run rampant through RPGs, and was considerably less so to non-existant for some of us.

Of course there were "better" characters than others. that has always existed. But the mindset of the OP was never considered in any of our RPGs ever before that.

Of course, all IME.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Apologies in advance but if anyone tried to show me the above before I had started playing D&D I would have run a mile. I understand that to play the game you need to kill some bad guys but it's a roleplaying game first and foremost, regardless of edition.

Are you saying that a 14 for prime stat is a bad thing- shouldn't be done, or are you saying... look at the consequences, the fights (subject to the law of averages) are going to take longer, if so- who really cares as long as people are having fun.

I don't want to sound too caustic (if at all), I love the maths but I just don't understand what the problem is.

Is a score of 14 for Int on one PC preventing people from playing a game and having a laugh doing so...

Sorry again, but all this just reads like madness, I don't recognise the game described in some of the posts above, or else barely.

PS My most memorable character (when I was a player) AD&D I think was generated with roll 4d6 take best three and his highest stat was a 15, multi-classed Cleric/Wizard/Rogue- I think. He memorised no offensive spells (ever) and would generally get through things by being much smarter than the average goblin/kobold/bugbear/mind flayer; or else by having a no-necked brainless lug do all his fighting for him. When the no-necks needed someone to charm the pants off the Jarl then I was the go-to guy, same with healing- the price for which was keeping me safe, same for finding the traps etc...

My brother played Boron the Illusionist in the same party- we still laugh and tell tales about him to this day (over twenty years later- we don't remember any of the 'optimised' characters with their 18 Str & 18 Con). Other than a high Int his stats were all below 10 (that's how it was back then with us), and we rolled our HP and 1's counted. Boron was utterly crap, and yet made something like 8th level before the joke wore thin. He famously hid under a cart full of the parties treasure (that's also how we were back then) while a Red Dragon attacked him, just him- the rest of the party were battling the Red Dragons twin elsewhere. Boron saved every time- got out from the incinerated cart, robes on fire- Dragon swoops around for next pass, and flings his dagger- natural 20- roll crit to confirm, natural 20 again- roll on DMs own designed crit table 00- instant death.

Illusionist Level 8, wearing purple robes, loon pants, gold curly-up slippers and armed with a +1 Dagger flings said dagger and slays Red Dragon...

You figure the odds.

That's why I play- not for the one in a million chance but because it's a fantasy game, and your characters can do/try anything.

My point, and apologies if I'm picking on you- I'm not, the game gets played a thousand different ways by a thousand different people, the result- killing the monsters, solving the puzzle, getting the girl whatever is important, but the journey, the journey is everything.

No offence taken, I found your post to be most polite. I do think you should take a step back and look at my previous post. I haven't posted a single opinion. I posted information that can be used when comparing characters stat-wise. The reason was to be informative of what the consequences of main stat choices in combat would be.

Personally I feel that you can play whatever character you like. My last 4e character didn't have a stat over 14. (Actually most of my stats where 14.). He was a charismatic knight-priest who was excellent at making others see his side of the story. In other words he had a lot of ranks in diplomacy. If I had a low charisma and no ranks in diplomacy, it would be really hard for me to portray him as a charismatic character, wouldn't it?

The stats are there to use for adjudicating the game regarding how diplomatic my character actually was. It would be a real bummer to have the DM say: "Nah, the guard isn't swayed by your words and calls for his buddies" all the time because of my low diplomacy-score. Therefore I optimized my diplomacy score to a certain degree.

In the same sense - the Sword mage in question isn't exactly going to be stellar in combat, so if the player thinks he is one and portrays him as a great fighter - well, it won't match the game-reality. The character can be fun to play, but he won't be particularly good at combat.

One thing you said I don't know where you were going with:

...and your characters can do/try anything...

Sure your character can try anything, but actually managing to do it is a completely different matter. If you want your character to be likely at succeed at doing a particular action you should build your character for it. If not you aren't going to accomplish the things you want with your character, or your DM is babying you and making everything easy for you.

highest stat was a 15, multi-classed Cleric/Wizard/Rogue

This is what is called a triple-treat character on the char-op boards with nearly max level in both arcane and divine magic. You have so much utility you probably have a solution to ANY problem except if you want to play "fair". Something I don't see a Rogue doing. . In addition spellcasting isn't tied very hard to your stats and neither is your skills. This combo is probably THE strongest one you can get in AD&D. In my opinion Multi-classing in AD&D was ridiculously powerful and easy to do!

 

[rjdafoe]

In my opinion, taking shots at other editions and games stoops to a similar level of elitism as someone telling another their character sucks and should be optimized more.

No, I am not bashing anything other than the idea that someone should be telling someone else how to play or make their character, or telling them how to play the game. The title of the thread bothers me as well.

All I did was compare what has happened with people that I know and how the attitudes changed after getting into MMOs. For the record, I have played almost every MMO also.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RE: MMOs started it.

Actually, I've seen this attitude dating back before there were even computer games.

I've been playing D&D since '77, and even though I love spellcasters, at no point in my gaming history would anyone accuse me of having played an optimized arcanist.

All those must-have spells? You know- like Sleep, Magic Missile, etc.? I've never played a PC that even has those 2 I just named, and many of the rest of them are absent as well.

Most people don't notice until they ask me, "Why don't you cast Spell X?" in a given situation. When I respond that my PC doesn't have it, I get the bulging-eye stare and "Why the hell not?"

The response to that question depends on the PC, but its usually something on the order of "Its not a spell he would learn- it doesn't fit his demeanor."

Usually, that's the end of the discussion. On occasion, its caused me to have a rift with another gamer serious enough for me not to associated with that person anymore.

 

[Goonalan]

Re-read your post, okay- I agree you're not one side of the argument or the other, sorry- probably reacting to previous posts.

Still I think I have a point- I've had Fighters that are not that great at fighting, although in-game they were legends in their own mind, the fact that the other players had to rescue them time and time again is obviously glossed over.

My brother's in a campaign at the moment (based on D&D- the DM re-wrote the 2nd Edition rules) which has been ongoing for, I think, 23 years- one year (one session/month), there was no combat, and the stories he tells- the quick-witted Rapier wielding Fighter breaking into a Nunnery (no quest- just a drunken bet that went wrong and took three months to play out- with much hilarity), the Arch Mage Wizard who counsels Demons etc.

You mentioned your Paladin having high Diplomacy- well, that'd be nice; but without the high Diplomacy would that mean you wouldn't try to talk down the angry guardsman. I mentioned the Dwarven Fighter who talked his way into the Grimmerzhul Fortress on the back of a Diplomacy check (and other skills)- his Diplomacy bonus is probably the lowest in the group. The player however is as sharp as a pin and bright with it- now the Dwarf does some very dumb things (not wise)- flinging himself off a cliff to grab hold of a Gargoyle in an attempt to wrestle the thing to the ground springs to mind. But the player is a mature adult, aware of the consequences of his action- fall to possible death; the Gargoyle had however said something about his mother...

When I said anything goes I mean that any player can try to use any skill, or at least announce- I leap from the cart, onto the roof of the house, then launch myself down into the middle of the Huge Gelatinous Cube... Which has happened, the knowledge that there exists a chance, and that the friendly DM (me) is here to make things work (where possible), makes for a game in which anyone can try anything.

The Rogue is caught in the oubliette (no way out) with a Trog who could kill him easy, he ellects to attempt a slight-of-hand impromptu Magic show in order to distract the Trog until his friends figure out how to get him out.

Our Eladrin Wizard is carrying his dead mothers severed head (inside a water filled crystal ball naturally) at the moment- mid combat he's often to be found blasting away with his spells and locked in "please mother not now" argument about the 'nice Mr Lucan (our bastard Thief) always makes an effort to look smart, and why doesn't he get a proper job."

I didn't start with this style of play, one of my previous story hours, The Lost Boys in the Sunless Citadel, http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour/161872-story-hours-index-authors-add-your-own-5.html involved 4 players aged 9-12. Believe me that was enlightening, they'd never played D&D or any RPG game before. Their were no rules, or at least limitations for them, and until the players fell out (over something other than D&D) they tried everything.

The Paladin went scouting, or tried checking for traps. The Cleric picking locks- and failing, and never tiring of trying. The Wizard wanting more than anything to own a Skeleton and make it his friend, and on... Read the story hour if you like- they were great roleplayers.

The liberating thing is if you think of it, and it's not impossible, merely improbable, then why not try. If my players just did what they're good at every week then I'd have two Fighters, a Cleric, a Wizard etc. Instead I am blessed with an angry Dwarf cursed by Moradin (he never turns undead, or succeeds at a Religion check- and of course they're his prime stats with bonuses) so instead curses his God back and does it the hard, or sometimes (although not often), the clever way.

Another Dwarf that may of may not be a Dwarforged (a type of Dwarf-Robot cyborg- think of the Cylons) that is constantly talking himself into nasty situations that either work out wonderfully or else result in mayhem (volume 11)- who wants, get this- more than anything, to open a pub and a Post Office- he's already converted several Bloodreaver Hobgoblins to being Post Men (they held out for caps with badges on them- some tough negotiating), has employed a Shadar-kai Witch to make cookies and is most proud of his Ever-Full Boot of Stout. I could go on...

So sorry again, but my point was this, the Int 14 Sword-Mage may decide that he wants to change, and maybe have a chat with his friendly DM, that's his play. And the OP can say something if he wants to, once again, his play. But nothing 'sucks' here, nothing is broken- the other players, unless they're really not happy, should do their best to get on board with the Int 14 guy- his way of playing the game may be at least as much fun. If the game is all fighting then maybe in the long run he'll suffer, but that's the learning curve, and for many people failing only ensures that the next time they do it right. Otherwise he could have other strengths that are just as valuable to the party.

In the examples above I talked about our Dwarven Priest of Moradin- Farkill, in one and a half years of gaming I have to say he is perhaps the most unlucky die-roller I have ever seen. Worse still he often starts each Religion check, Holy/Undead style attack with "I call upon Moradin to...", and when he does he misses, and fails, and fumbles, and misses, and misses, and misses some more- some sessions it's embarrassing. Four hours and still counting since Farkill hit something, or indeed succeeded at an important check... He's not optimised- none of the characters are.

What would you do?

The PCs were on a fortress situated in the underdark on a plateau, actually the sheered off stump of a stalagmite, straight down a thousand feet from the fortress- one bridge in, one bridge out.

Being chased by 30 (yep) Gnolls, a Large Shadow Dragon and later a bunch of Demons- effectively five or so encounters in a row with no (or perhaps one) short rest allowed in the series of encounters.

Farkill smashes his hammer into the floor of the fortress, screams and curses at Moradin (blue air) in an attempt to start a crack that will prevent the multitude of bad guys getting at them; and because for all the killing the PCs are not getting away and even more Gnolls are turning up.

Then the natural 20.

BOOM

Moradin speaks, just short of one-half of the fortress slowly unpeels, the stalagmite is split cleanly in two, millions of tons of rock just slips down into the inky blackness, along with 50 or so Gnolls still aboard.

It took a good five minutes for the players to stop screaming and hollering on Skype, 'yeah baby' in a Serbian accent at volume 11 is something I'm going to remember for the rest of my days.

Impossible is not trying.

When you're sick of failing your religion check instead announce you are going to attempt to open up a twenty foot crevasse with your hammer- that'll make Moradin sit up and take notice, a little ambition.

Perhaps I'm just playing an out there version of the game that's less reliant on the rules, and more reliant on a shared narrative that makes everyone happy (and pay attention). Players get to make Death Saves, I don't hold back when it goes wrong- but they stick together like glue, and find a way by hook or by crook.

It's a great game D&D, the stats (and your PCs skills etc.) are just a small part of it, particularly when you're all in it together and nobody wants you to fail, just to have fun.

Oh and Farkill believes himself to be Blessed by Moradin these days, he still misses or fails quite a bit, but not as often as some of the other PCs, and not nearly as much as he did previously- funny that. He keeps yelling for Moradin before he announces his latest attempt to... whatever it is, however.

And that makes Moradin happy.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I've got a player that acts this rudely towards others' choices. Telling someone that their character sucks is no way to behave.

Ensure that the player makes an informed decision, but don't add a value judgement to it. It's in his interest to make an informed decision. It's fair and correct to offer it to him. Insulting him is not in his interest and not fair.

Of course, if a problem player stays a problem player - in however we define problem players for our personal games - you can still give him the boot.

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me in your first paragraph. I've learned to deal with his rudeness over the years. I try to make sure he is as informed as I can witout ruining the game (full disclosure if player to player talk, more limited if DM to player talk). I also inform him when he is becoming overly rude. Most insults hurled at him are the jabs that two long-time friends take at each other meant in the spirit of fun or moments of weakness when his rudeness has hit a peak.

There have been times when I wonder why I put up with him at my table. But friendship goes deeper than any ridiculous argument over what ultimately amounts to a silly game. The game is more important to us as a vehicle that allows us to hang out more often.

 

[Nifft]

Perhaps I'm just playing an out there version of the game that's less reliant on the rules, and more reliant on a shared narrative that makes everyone happy (and pay attention). Players get to make Death Saves, I don't hold back when it goes wrong- but they stick together like glue, and find a way by hook or by crook.

It's a great game D&D, the stats (and your PCs skills etc.) are just a small part of it, particularly when you're all in it together and nobody wants you to fail, just to have fun.

You seem to focus on the free-form roleplaying aspect of D&D -- the part where stats are irrelevant.

That's fine, but it's not the opposite of having a mechanically effective character.

You could suck at both, or you could be good at both.

Cheers, -- N

 

[pawsplay]

How do you politely say, "You're not having fun?"

 

[Janx]

It sounds like 4e has succombed to inflation. 18 minimum stat, to be cool. Since 18 is the highest a PC can start with (20 with stat bonus), that means every PC is supposed to be swinging an 18"

In all the D&D I ever played, 18 was a somewhat rare phenomnenon. Not every PC in the party had one.

Thus, when people talk about the 14 stat taking longer, I think they are missing the point. The 14 was how long it is SUPPOSED to take. Having an 18 means yer super awesome and thus everything gets done faster.

14 isn't slow and weak. 18 is stupendously fast and strong.

The attituded expressed that all PCs must have their prime stat at the maximum possible for a PC or they suck does not sell the game to me. I can appreciate that as players, we all want our stats to be high, but that's because we don't actually get to do so, and the game wasn't designed to expect our stats to be at maximum.

If having prime stat be at maximum was a requirement, than they should not only say that in the rulebook, they should hand out the stats they want us to run for each class. Otherwise, what was the point of rolling, or doing point buy, if you MUST have an 18 in your prime stat.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I've learned from this thread.

We have a player in our 3.5 Forgotten Realms game that really wants to be an optimizer, but he's so horrible at it that his attempts have the opposite effect. As of right now, he's ECL 14: avariel (lessened to +1 LA) sorcerer 4 / favored soul 4 / mystic theurge 4 with a celestial bloodline.

Oh my God, is his character weak. And I've made fun of him for it every single session. Mostly because every single session he finds a new way to suck.

"Hey, Jeff, do you have any advice on what 4th-level spell I should take?"

"I'd suggest that, as a spontaneous caster, you take a spell that fills in a gap in your abilities, that you'll use at least once or twice in every fight, or that you'll use several times a day out of combat."

"Cool, I'll take divination. Never mind that you're a cleric and can get divination whenever you want."

"Okay, Josh, enjoy."

Anyway, I like the player, and my PC gruffly considers his PC to be like a son. Now I know how it sounds when I criticize his choices for his PC -- though if he's going to ignore me, I do need him to stop asking for advice -- and I'm going to stop doing it.