How do I deal with a rule lawyer?

[Harmon]

You have some good suggestions except for this one. Sorry, but nobody likes to be called out in front of a bunch of people like this. It's humiliating and puts the person on the defensive. This isn't a D&D intervention. You take the person aside and speak to them privately about it. You don't expose their shortcomings as a group thing because the person now feels like everyone in the group has ganged up on him and wonders what kind of talk they've been doing behind his back. Nope. Not a good way to handle it. If there's any desire to keep the player, you just blew it as the guy gets up from the table and gives everyone the bird as he walks out. (Of course, if you wanted to accomplish that then it's a good way to go if you don't mind the bad feelings that result.)

Noted, and a very good point. In proper and good leadership (GMs are the leaders at the gaming table) you never reprimand another person in front of others, that is very true.

My reasoning for doing this in front of the others though is- The OP seems to imply that the Rules Lawyer is doing this regularly and everyone is aware of the problem Player, so my thinking is that doing so (in front of everyone), first says- 'everyone here is aware of the situation, and that they are more then likely suffering through it, by me declaring this in front of everyone I am replacing your dominance of the game with My GM Law.'

I do agree with you, a personal one on one should be done first in 99% of all leadership, but seldom have I seen this kind of person back off after a one on one, usually they just start up again a week later. Getting this out there in the group, lets everyone know that you are taking control of the problem and that it will no longer be a problem in the group.

I have been with the same group for eighteen years now, and gamed with perhaps two dozen others gamers, I haven't got a lot of experience with problem players (cause we have always just not invited them back), but I have been a Foremen, and a Leadman on construction sites. When I would get a Know it All on the job site I would either make him my assistant (if I was a Foremen he'd be my Leadman) or Ditch Digging Boy- it depended on what he knew and how he handled knowing it.

(A guy that comes in rubbing information in my face would get a lay off check no matter what he knew, while a guy that spoke up and told me that I had missed something got the $.50 raise you get with being a Leadman.)

I apologize if I come off a little brash, its not my intent, this thread seems to have some flickers of flames and I have no intentions of feeding that, I am just trying to help the OP and any that see similar problems with their groups. Should we acquire a Rules Lawyer I will try to one on one approach first (at your recommendation), but I as I have said- my experience shows that calling him out in front of the group is the only way to get him to settle down.

 

[gizmo33]

Our DM doesnt 'cheat' a lot. Maybe one or two times in a session (3-4 hours) he change the dice result. He doesnt try to save us if we do stupid things. If someone blows an alchemy shop without reason and is seen by people the DM won't save him with such stupid actions, but tries to roleplay it as realistic.

There was a episode where butosei saw that our DM rolled a 18 with a rapier. The person would die if he made a critical above 3 dmg on the dice and it would ruin the game a bit. He took it as a 16 on the dice, however, butosei the manslayer saw that it was a critical and the PC died due to that and butosei was happy.

If the DM believed that he was being fair and reasonable in his rulings then he wouldn't have changed it. If he wants to use "action points", or make fudging rolls a regular part of the game then IMO he should be honest about it. Then Butosei wouldn't have a case. But AFAICT the DM isn't being honest, which is why Butosei was able to get him to change the roll.

The DM gets to run the game, and he determines the reality within the game. But he doesn't have the authority to determine reality outside of the game. If he's going to roll and 18 and call it a 10, that's fine, but pretending that he didn't roll an 18 in reality is lying, it's unecessary and beyond his authority as a DM. IME the most respectful way to DM a game is to be upfront with players about what your table rules are. If the DM gets to change dice rolls to whatever he wants then he should say so - make it a table rule. Then a "rules lawyer" would actually support the DM. IME rules lawyers are at their worst when what the DM says and what the DM does do not match.

As a side note: PC death is part of the RAW. It's understandable that players have the default expectation that their own and other PCs can die. If your DM has a problem with this, it's something he should explain at the start, because it differs from the RAW. Maybe use a mechanic like action points - or just make a rule that says that the DM will change dice rolls depending on the "stupidity factor" of the player's actions, or whatever.

 

[Cameron]

Well I dont play it myself, but he plays with some rules which is more realistic than D&D I heard from him. Dont know anything about it so please dont focus on that



My DM has the uniqe faculty to roll extremly well. Everytime I watch him roll stats then it is great, when I see him playing games involving dices, he's rolls are great etc. And yes, of course we know about critical confirmation roll, we are not stupid and there is a rule lawyer - butosei in the crew. The DM tried to hide it, but butosei was sneaky and looked behind the curtain when he didnt see him.

I assure you that our DM arent stupid or bad, no one complains about him, except for the butosei manslayer. His DM teacher or whatever you will call it, with 30 years of experience has told him that he is better than himself as a DM. Please dont attack the DM like that, but give me (and him) some advice. Im not interested in backstabbing butosei, I really want to hear other peoples experience about situation like these.

I have had experience with a person like that. He is the one that furiously look up rules when his PC bites the big one to try and save his PC, and then throws a sulk and temper tantrum when he couldn't. He keeps quite and is angry that I point out things that the DM forgot (bonuses, penalties, etc.) when it is against the PCs, but is happy to point them out himself if it benefits the PCs.

Having said that, what I don't like here is the fact that you keep referring to him as the "butosei mankiller". I am not too sure what that means (I am not a manga/anime fan), but it does imply a certain animousity towards the complainee. Are you sure you are being objective here and persenting the case in that light? Could you, perhaps, direct the other members in the group here so that we can hear their sides of the story as well?

 

[KrazyHades]

Give him two chances to cut it out and kindly explain what he can do to make roleplaying with him more fun. Point out that he needs to do more to develop his character. If he doesn't do these things, kick him out and don't let him come back.

 

[+5 Keyboard!]

I apologize if I come off a little brash, its not my intent, this thread seems to have some flickers of flames and I have no intentions of feeding that, I am just trying to help the OP and any that see similar problems with their groups. Should we acquire a Rules Lawyer I will try to one on one approach first (at your recommendation), but I as I have said- my experience shows that calling him out in front of the group is the only way to get him to settle down.

Not at all, my man. Just wanted to point out the optimum way to handle such a situation in most instances (first offense, at least) lest someone skip right past this important step to the big humiliating group confrontation because they heard it hear and thought it was the best way to handle a guy. If this fails, by all means, it's time to take off the gloves and let him know that the entire group has had enough (i.e. your way).

 

[Moon-Lancer]

imho a truly neutral rules lawyer would point out rules that do not favor him.

an example could be the rl player wants his character to fire a bow to hit the ogre, and the dm says ogre has cover from another character so the ogre gains a +4 to ac. The rl player reminds the dm that the because the other character is adjacent to the ogre and in melee, that his character takes a -4 on his attack as well.

 

[+5 Keyboard!]

imho a truly neutral rules lawyer would point out rules that do not favor him.

an example could be the rl player wants his character to fire a bow to hit the ogre, and the dm says ogre has cover from another character so the ogre gains a +4 to ac. The rl player reminds the dm that the because the other character is adjacent to the ogre and in melee, that his character takes a -4 on his attack as well.

Heh. Actually, the RL player points out to the DM that since the ogre is a large creature, he (the archer PC) can choose which of the four squares the ogre occupies to fire into to hit the ogre thus ignoring the penalty for firing into a melee AND possibly negating the cover bonus to the ogre's AC (and then flips the PHB open to the combat chapter and shows the DM the relevant text).
Your welcome for the correction. Nyuk, nyuk

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Having said that, what I don't like here is the fact that you keep referring to him as the "butosei mankiller". I am not too sure what that means (I am not a manga/anime fan), but it does imply a certain animousity towards the complainee. Are you sure you are being objective here and persenting the case in that light? Could you, perhaps, direct the other members in the group here so that we can hear their sides of the story as well?

Hitokiri Battosai (Battosai Man-killer) is from the anime Rurouni Kenshin. It's what the main character was called in his past when he was a cold blooded assassin. It's not really an insult as much of a decree of pure badassness.

 

[Cameron]

Hitokiri Battosai (Battosai Man-killer) is from the anime Rurouni Kenshin. It's what the main character was called in his past when he was a cold blooded assassin. It's not really an insult as much of a decree of pure badassness.

Well, from his continued use of it in this thread, it seems that he is directing it to mean that the complainee is out to kill the PCs, and so it is a degoratory statement. But that is just my take on it from this thread alone, having never seen the anime.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

If notjer hasn't talked to him face to face yet, which we don't know if he's done, do you think he'd tell him about this thread? You would condemn him for not showing up in a thread which he has no knowledge of? And if he did, do you think he'd really feel welcome in a thread where people who have little knowledge of him are so quick to attack? If he came in here he'd be quite within his remit not to speak, and that because of people, you, who convict first without allowing him a defense.

Huh, I notice that hasnt stopped people from calling out notjer's DM and assigning blame in that direction or even insinuating that notjer is wrong for bringing this to some random message board instead of confronting the concerned parties.

I think it is simply awful to treat anyone in this manner. Good day.

And I think that if you act like an ass you should be treated like one. It's not my fault that if you lack common decency or social skills that I should have to deal with that. So yes, D00d would have been ejected from my table or if I were a player I'd call him on it. You seem to give the OP's problem player a lot of leeway. Good great for you. I don't. Am I sorry that you feel that way? not in the least. So you have a good day as well, Felix