D&D (2024) How many classes do you want to see this edition?

[Minigiant]

The problem was the playtest sorcerer was a reverse gish and worked fine for a character who gets more martial/monster as they lose spell slots. It works fine for a draconic Sorc, but it feels off once you move to the other subs. Some sorcerers are just casters born with unique subsets of magic: wild magic, shadows, storms, order, divinity, lunar/cosmic, etc. A sorcerer should have the option to become a monster, but some people want to a play a theme caster and the sorcerer should lean on having lots of options to expand that theme.

I just don't want to lose the option to play a sorcerer like a regular mage with a unique theme and be forced to transform into dragons, Slaads, shadow monsters, etc as I level.

I guess it will depend on how wizard and sorcerer spell prep changed.

But they only showed the draconic sorcerer. If the draconic sorcerer is a Gish, how does it make the wild or storm sorcerer one?

Are we to have another lame sorcerer because the playtest dragon sorcerer has dragon claws?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The Wild Mage is quite the experience.

Never liked the idea of playing wild magic. It's just too wild and wacky for the type of character I like to run.

I prefer the more dark and serious 'classic' fantasy type (generic I know), and randomly turning into a potted plant or going blue just doesn't go with that.

 

[tetrasodium]

But they only showed the draconic sorcerer. If the draconic sorcerer is a Gish, how does it make the wild or storm sorcerer one?

Are we to have another lame sorcerer because the playtest dragon sorcerer has dragon claws?

Storm giant? Behir? Mephit? House lyrander dragonmark of storm? Air Elemental? Some other lightning themed critter? Darksun Elemental Priest

Failing that what makes it mechanically distinct from a lightning specialized evoker? If it's just "an evoker but lightning" does it actually have enough space in the mechanics & fiction to exist?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I do strongly feel that 'wizard but hot' is not enough of a thematic niche to justify a sorcerer class.

 

[Remathilis]

But they only showed the draconic sorcerer. If the draconic sorcerer is a Gish, how does it make the wild or storm sorcerer one?

Are we to have another lame sorcerer because the playtest dragon sorcerer has dragon claws?

So if memory serves (it has been nearly a decade) much of that sorcerer class was built around depleting spell slots as you cast spells also increased your tankiness (HP, AC, melee damage) and gaining more draconic elements as you exhausted them. IIRC, subclasses weren't a part of the system yet (themes, which would become backgrounds and feats did that) so that was the only sorcerer build available. ALL sorcerers were dragons who started the day out as a ranged caster and ended it as a melee warrior.

Assuming that the draw is starting out a mage and ending it a monster, I think that is extremely limiting. Every sorcerer would have to turn into a monster (or otherwise become tankier) as you are depleting spells. I assume your subclass would determine what you turn into (so a divine sorcerer turns into an angel/fiend, an aberrant mind goes full tentacle aberration, clockwork soul becomes a modron) but others aren't so clear cut (what does a storm Sorc become? A shadow Sorc? A lunar sorcerer?) Further, assuming subclasses would remain a 4 level package, we're still looking for a mechanic that the base class needs for the other 16 levels. And I assume many of the other problems would have remained (limited spell choices and spell list).

I don't think the design was bad, but it was very niche and only worked if you wanted "Dragon: the Class". I don't think what we got was particularly good, but I think the other design was too specific.

 

[Remathilis]

I do strongly feel that 'wizard but hot' is not enough of a thematic niche to justify a sorcerer class.

I still am drawn to the "natural caster" vs book learning. I tend to view sorcerers like Mutants (aka X-Men), born with special magical powers. I'd like the sorcerer to expand in that route: magic tied to a type of theme or power source that isn't the classic schools of magic. Powers like Order, Wild Magic, Shadow, the Moon, psionics, etc. No spell books. No research. Just training and talent.

 

[Minigiant]

Like fiends? Undead? Fey? Maybe a genie? Now wherever have I seen that before....

Seriously, though, this is part of the Venn diagram of origins/patrons is a circle thing. Warlock already does this in no small part of you look at their subclasses

Warlock patron are near deities.
Sorcerer origins are usually freak accidents, fortune, or blood of a powerful but not that powerful monster.

The Fiend and the Dragon are not the same. Because the Fiend is an archfiend.

 

[Undrave]

So if memory serves (it has been nearly a decade) much of that sorcerer class was built around depleting spell slots as you cast spells also increased your tankiness (HP, AC, melee damage) and gaining more draconic elements as you exhausted them. IIRC, subclasses weren't a part of the system yet (themes, which would become backgrounds and feats did that) so that was the only sorcerer build available. ALL sorcerers were dragons who started the day out as a ranged caster and ended it as a melee warrior.

Assuming that the draw is starting out a mage and ending it a monster, I think that is extremely limiting. Every sorcerer would have to turn into a monster (or otherwise become tankier) as you are depleting spells. I assume your subclass would determine what you turn into (so a divine sorcerer turns into an angel/fiend, an aberrant mind goes full tentacle aberration, clockwork soul becomes a modron) but others aren't so clear cut (what does a storm Sorc become? A shadow Sorc? A lunar sorcerer?) Further, assuming subclasses would remain a 4 level package, we're still looking for a mechanic that the base class needs for the other 16 levels. And I assume many of the other problems would have remained (limited spell choices and spell list).

I don't think the design was bad, but it was very niche and only worked if you wanted "Dragon: the Class". I don't think what we got was particularly good, but I think the other design was too specific.

Maybe a Storm Socerer would become closer to a lightning elemental and even start flying around?

It wouldn't need to become a tanker melee guy, but maybe they gain an at-will lightning attack and lose versatility as it goes on? Or they become a living zone dangerous to anyone, but not specifically tankier?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Lots of things which a storm sorcerer could be based on, and they wouldn't even need to go the tank route.

Air elementals, djinni, elder tempests, mephits, invisible stalkers, or bronze/blue dragons. Even something as simple as animated lightning breath.

They all have unique traits which could be leaned into as class features which you gain as you lose will points.

 

[Minigiant]

So if memory serves (it has been nearly a decade) much of that sorcerer class was built around depleting spell slots as you cast spells also increased your tankiness (HP, AC, melee damage) and gaining more draconic elements as you exhausted them. IIRC, subclasses weren't a part of the system yet (themes, which would become backgrounds and feats did that) so that was the only sorcerer build available. ALL sorcerers were dragons who started the day out as a ranged caster and ended it as a melee warrior.

Assuming that the draw is starting out a mage and ending it a monster, I think that is extremely limiting. Every sorcerer would have to turn into a monster (or otherwise become tankier) as you are depleting spells. I assume your subclass would determine what you turn into (so a divine sorcerer turns into an angel/fiend, an aberrant mind goes full tentacle aberration, clockwork soul becomes a modron) but others aren't so clear cut (what does a storm Sorc become? A shadow Sorc? A lunar sorcerer?) Further, assuming subclasses would remain a 4 level package, we're still looking for a mechanic that the base class needs for the other 16 levels. And I assume many of the other problems would have remained (limited spell choices and spell list).

I don't think the design was bad, but it was very niche and only worked if you wanted "Dragon: the Class". I don't think what we got was particularly good, but I think the other design was too specific.

I didn't see design going that way. I saw it as getting spell like or monster like abilities as you spell slots run it.

Dragon would go monstrous.
Storm would get lightning spell like.
Wild would go all survey.
Favordsoul/Celestial would get SMITE and HEAL.

Storm giant? Behir? Mephit? House lyrander dragonmark of storm? Air Elemental? Some other lightning themed critter? Darksun Elemental Priest

Failing that what makes it mechanically distinct from a lightning specialized evoker? If it's just "an evoker but lightning" does it actually have enough space in the mechanics & fiction to exist?

I didn't mean I didn't think lightning or air sorcerers wouldn't exist.

I meant they wouldn't turn into monsters but get at will lightning spells.