D&D 5E How should WoTC address different playstyles of D&D Next?

How should WoTC address different playstyles of D&D Next?

  • They should explicitly discuss this with fans

    Votes: 38 52.8%
  • They should not explicitly discuss this with fans

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • In the past, they've already addressed this to my satisfaction

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • In the past, they have not addressed this to my satisfaction

    Votes: 23 31.9%
  • They should help manage my expectations for what D&D Next will be

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • They don't need to manage my expectations for what D&D Next will be

    Votes: 9 12.5%
  • It's already obvious WHICH playstyle(s) will be supported or not

    Votes: 15 20.8%
  • It's not obvious WHICH playstyle(s) will be supported or not

    Votes: 19 26.4%
  • It's already obvious HOW multiple playstyle(s) will be supported

    Votes: 11 15.3%
  • It's not obvious HOW multiple playstyle(s) will be supported

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • I think D&D already supports a hybrid of playstyles to my satisfaction

    Votes: 13 18.1%
  • I think D&D does not properly support a hybrid of playstyles to my satisfaction

    Votes: 19 26.4%
  • Not applicable, there really is only one best supported playstyle for D&D

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • There are other playstyles??

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • My answer isn't summated on this poll

    Votes: 6 8.3%
  • I don't care

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • I'm not sure

    Votes: 6 8.3%
  • I just don't know

    Votes: 4 5.6%
  • I don't like this poll

    Votes: 15 20.8%
  • All other lemons go here

    Votes: 7 9.7%

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
No. To someone else, I already have started on that with Manbearcat and Balesir. You, no, never. You have a history of being fixated on individual examples (like that acid spell argument that went for pages and pages across 2 threads) and you continue to do so. It's not fun or interesting talking to you, ok?

So don't reply to me. Hit the ignore button. if you can't help yourself. But don't make the decision to engage in a discussion with me, tell me it's about other issues, and when I ask you twice what other issues you change the subject twice...this time making it personal about me. Your public personal attack certainly doesn't help move the thread in a positive direction.

So if not for me...tell everyone else what other issues you're referring to, other than Damage on a Miss? Because at this point I am guessing I am not the only one thinking you're protesting too much.
 

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urLordy

First Post
So don't reply to me. Hit the ignore button. if you can't help yourself. But don't make the decision to engage in a discussion with me, tell me it's about other issues, and when I ask you twice what other issues you change the subject twice...this time making it personal about me.
Let me be clear: I wanted to defend myself against your accusation of my state of mind and I didn't want the thread to be derailed (TerraDave's post was the first signal), and since you didn't get threadbanned, I did so.
Your public personal attack certainly doesn't help move the thread in a positive direction.
Again, let me be clear: I could say someone is ugly, that's an attack. I could say I'm not attracted to that person, that's not an attack. If I say it's not fun talking to you, that's the truth. It's not diplomatic. It's not friendly. I don't think it's an attack.
So if not for me...tell everyone else what other issues you're referring to, other than Damage on a Miss?
I tried to go around you on post #23 but you came back at it.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Let me be clear: I wanted to defend myself against your accusation of my state of mind and I didn't want the thread to be derailed (TerraDave's post was the first signal), and since you didn't get threadbanned, I did so.Again, let me be clear: I could say someone is ugly, that's an attack. I could say I'm not attracted to that person, that's not an attack. If I say it's not fun talking to you, that's the truth. It's not diplomatic. It's not friendly. I don't think it's an attack.
I tried to go around you on post #23 but you came back at it.

4TH TIME: WHAT ISSUES, OTHER THAN DAMAGE ON A MISS, ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

Every time I ask it, and you respond with everything other than naming another issue, you reinforce the impression that it's just about Damage on a Miss for you.
 

urLordy

First Post
Mistwell keeps demanding IN CAPLOCKS that I respond to him. There is no obligation on my part to do so. I clearly told him no. Just because I avoid him, I don't want to give everyone the impression that this is about DoaM (as he implies above). I just really, really hate arguing with him.

I think this thread is worthwhile, but I'm never going to find out while Mistwell and I squabble. So I'm stepping back.

Please don't let Mistwell's assumptions or prejudices derail things. 5E's mantra was to empower multiple playstyles. This includes getting to the story behind the mechanics as per Mearl's quote. My argument from post 16 is that WoTC has only publically engaged in discussions at a gamist and tactical level, what rules are fun, etc. I want to see them engaged equally about the story behind the mechanics, because that's important to me too as a playstyle.

DoaM is the unfortunate poster boy because it's the clearest and most widely known example of a) rallying point for conflicting playstyle(s) and b) lack of WoTC's public engagement when it comes to the story behind the mechanics. But there are other examples, like hit points, hit and miss -- it's all tied together in one larger paradigm of viewing the ruleset. Mistwell is fixated on the one example. PLEASE DON'T LET HIM DRAG EVERYTHING DOWN THAT WAY.

I do see both sides of the story for DoaM, regardless of someone's prejudice. I don't care what WoTC's answer is, I just hoped they would say more. If I don't like their answer, I'll reset my expectations accordingly. In the end though, my opinion is irrelevant. The larger and more relevant issue is the very interesting (to me anyway) relationship between 5E's unified playstyle mantra vs lack of official engagement about the relationship between story and mechanics for various playstyles.

Ironically, the squabble between Mistwell and myself seems to exactly support my concerns at the end of #16.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter

Guys, really? Are either of you under the misapprehension that this makes you, or your positions look good? If so, please let me disabuse you of the notion.

Cut it out already. If you've got questions, please take them to e-mail or PM.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I don't think anyone has a major issue with hit points outside of damage on a miss.

I don't think anyone has a major issue with "hit and miss" outside of damage on a miss.

I don't think any playstyle is at issue with either hit points, or "hit or miss", in themselves. And I don't think WOTC has failed to engage the story behind either hit points or "hit or miss" in a way that's a major issue for anyone, outside of damage on a miss.

Mod note: See my post below before replaying, folks. ~Umbran
 
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pemerton

Legend
I voted

* In the past, they've already addressed this to my satisfaction

* They don't need to manage my expectations for what D&D Next will be

* It's already obvious HOW multiple playstyle(s) will be supported​

In the past, as per some of the quotes upthread provided by [MENTION=6747028]urLordy[/MENTION], WotC - especially Mearls - has talked about supporting multiple playstyles through options, modules etc. I think this is how they plan to handle these things. In this way, I think it's fairly obvious how multiple playstyles may be supported (to the extent that they will be). I don't need any more explanation from WotC. I wouldn't mind seeing some more examples.

WotC does not need to "manage my expectations for what D&D Next will be". They have made it pretty clear - through commentary and publication via the playtest - what D&D Next will be. I don't think it is going to support the sort of RPGing I'm interestsed in that well, but I could be wrong. The interaction rules have some interesting elements, for instance, even though they seem a bit attenuated at this point. As per my previous paragraph, I am not interested in more explanations. I am interested in seeing examples.

What would be helpful - but which D&D has always shied away from, I think because it likes to be seen as all things to all people - would be more commentary on the rationale for including or not including certain options or approaches in a game.

Here's a slightly convoluted example: 4e has at least two magic items I know of intended to make resource-tracking unnecessary: the 4th level Basket of Everlasting Provisions, which obivates the need to track rations; and the 9th level Endless Quiver. In my campaign I had the PCs receive a Basket early in the campaign, as a gift from some elves. It gives an ingame reason for being able to ignore food tracking. In my campaign I have never placed an Endless Quiver for the ranger PC, but nevertheless the player has never tracked ammunition: I guess we just assume that he scavenges, makes his own, etc. Why the different approach? I'm not entirely sure, but a Basket of Everlasting Provisions makes for a cool fey reward to the party as a whole, whereas the 9th level Endless Quiver seems both more magically potent, and also is relevant to only one player and therefore doesn't really contribute to the colour of the collective story that much.

So I have my own half-baked reasons for having used one item to get around resource tracking, while just handwaving the other resource tracking issue without doing so via an item. A good rulebook would actually talk about these options, the role that magic items play in contributing to the resolution of these sorts of play issues, possible trade-offs in items for some vs hand waving for others, etc. The 4e rulebooks don't have this sort of commentary. Nor do the D&D Next playtest documents outside of healing options. It would be good for the final rules to have some commentary along these lines for a whole range of options - not just items, and encumbrance, and resource tracking, and healing, but also PC build options (incuding damage on a miss), monster options, DC setting, and indeed the whole gamut of game and mechanical elements.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I don't think anyone has a major issue with hit points outside of damage on a miss.

I don't think anyone has a major issue with "hit and miss" outside of damage on a miss.

I don't think any playstyle is at issue with either hit points, or "hit or miss", in themselves. And I don't think WOTC has failed to engage the story behind either hit points or "hit or miss" in a way that's a major issue for anyone, outside of damage on a miss.

I actually do have some major issues with hit points, and the way D&D handles them is something which bugs me. However, I understand that the changes I would personally want to make would turn D&D into a game which it is not supposed to be. Even though I feel there are many other games which handle HP in a manner which I like a lot more, I accept that D&D does things in a certain way because that's part of the D&D vision; for times when I don't want that vision, I'm better off playing a different game than trying to shoehorn D&D into something it isn't meant to be.

My point for bringing that up is to say that I do believe there are people who have a problem with how HP work because I am one. However, I do not believe D&D should change to something I would personally prefer more because then it would no longer be recognizable as D&D to the majority of the community, so I accept that D&D HP work the way they do because that's just part of the style D&D has.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
I don't think anyone has a major issue with hit points outside of damage on a miss.
I don't think this is true. I haven't counted the number of times the wish for a "wound system" has been wished for on various fora, but there are certainly lots of such posts (even if what is envisaged is often some sort of bastardised hit points affair rather than a complete break).

Hit points, when it comes down to it, are just an adaptation of our prediliction to count up points when playing games. For any simulation of reality they are hopeless, whatever form they come in. Their ubiquity is essentially a result of failure of imagination on our part; we simply fail to imagine other ways of doing things better suited to what we actually want to do.

Not that there aren't systems available that actually do away with them, but they are few and far between. Primetime Adventures is one exception, HârnMaster another. FATE, for all its other departures, still uses a variant on the "health track" (which is hit points with makeup on, since there is still a fixed pool of "life" to be attenuated before character death).

So, for D&D there may be little dissention about hit points, but that is because they either support the style of play implied/assumed by D&D well or they are used by those who, despite wanting a different style, can't or don't wish to envision any alternative system to the "store of life that runs out" that hit points represents.

I don't think anyone has a major issue with "hit and miss" outside of damage on a miss.
Again I remember the debates about poison taking effect and disease transmission, et al. If you don't think it has been contentious I can only imagine you weren't paying attention to those threads (which may have been a wise move, incidentally, but whatever...)

I don't think any playstyle is at issue with either hit points, or "hit or miss", in themselves.
This I find, um, incomprehensible, frankly. Hit points are one (of several) things at the very heart of what makes a system support specific play styles comfortably. They represent the stakes in play at a character level. The idea that you have a pool of "stuff" that you don't particularly lose anything for getting ablated but that you lose a "life" for getting reduced to zero (or whatever other threshold limit) is central to the specific play experience of D&D-type games. There are alternatives. 13th Age introduces one (on top of its core "hit point" base) with the "campaign loss" rule. HârnMaster of course has degree of risk (rather than degree of resource pool loss) as the main stake in combat or other dangerous pursuits. PTA has success or failure in addressing your character's "issue".

This mechanism for character survival stakes (the "life pool" of hit points) is one of a few that define the basic D&D "play style" amid the vast range of styles theoretically possible in RPGs in general. Others include:

- Character "development". In the D&D paradigm this means "the character getting more powerful". Other "narrativist" style games have the character change in ways that make them no more powerful, but might make them deeper and more complex from a story point of view. A pure sim game might arguably have no such explicit change mechanism at all; early Traveller did just that.

- Scenario assumptions. D&D rules are written assuming that the characters will be involved in a series of "adventures" that will involve doing dangerous and exciting things as a group of broadly allied characters to complete either GM assigned or player selected "missions". For sure, you could play a bunch of ordinary villagers surviving from day-to-day and exploring their interrelationships - but then you would hardly be using any of the actual rules of D&D to do so. The assumption is a set of ne'er-do-wells chasing fame and fortune. This is reflected in the character "classes", the equipment list and the types of activity for which rules are provided, among other things.

- Character teams. Characters are defined by their role in an adventuring "team" because of the class they choose. Sure, there have been extensive attempts to fudge this by allowing "multi-classing", but fundamentally this has always been somewhat clunky as a mechanism. If you want characters to be nuanced individuals rather than "roles", why have classes at all? Many systems don't.

I should close by saying that none of this is intended as any sort of "dig" against D&D. I think D&D is strengthened by being something specific and having a clear "personality" as a roleplaying system. When I play D&D I relish just these aspects of the play experience; this is helped by the fact that, if I want some other play experience, I choose a different system! It's true that I avoided D&D for several years after becoming frustrated with how poor it was at supporting the styles I wanted to play at the time, but having found systems that support those other styles well I later came back to D&D and found I was able to appreciate it anew for what it did well, rather than trying to make it do what it didn't do well. I commend this route to all.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I don't think anyone has a major issue with hit points outside of damage on a miss.


And I think someone failed to heed a moderator warning to drop it, and will be taking a week off for the trouble.

We've already closed two threads on the subject because folks could not keep it to discussion, instead of argument. When we ask you to drop it, we expect it to be dropped like a hot rock.

I strongly suggest nobody else pick the "damage on a miss" rock up in this thread, or any other for a while. Clear? If not, please take it to e-mail or PM with the moderator of your choice to discuss it.

Thank you all for your time.
 

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