How to kill a blue dragon?

[LittleFuzzy]

Sounds to me like a time to break out those Charisma-based skills. Try an intimidate to taunt it into fighting within reachable ranges *dragons have traditonally been given large and well-deserved egos that characters can try to manipulate* or bluff checks for playing possum If all else fails, have everyone run.

You're playing a game and if the DM is playing the dragon in a way that makes it completely untouchable, having it pursue you all to the death, and not providing any sort of other out then your table has more serious problems than the dragon.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Unfortunately, I did just realize something that makes him much, much worse - Lightning Burst is a Burst 2. That means he can stay 22 squares off the ground, and fire it at a square 20 squares away, and still hit the PCs standing on the ground at the edge of the burst. This means longbow archers are now at long-range penalties, and Javelins and Magic Missiles can't reach unless a PC can jump into the third square before attacking - which is unlikely. The only way they might do so is by getting on each others shoulders - at which point the dragon has multiple targets for Lightning Burst.

The rules are so unclear on the verticality of AoE's it's ridiculous. You could just as easily say that a burst is spherical, and therefore if you had a Burst 2 that was 2 squares above the ground, only 1 square that was below the center would actually hit the ground. So yeah, he could technically use that tactic in that case, but then it would only hit one person.

 

[TheNovaLord]

make this a skill challenege to get past the dragon....

I had a smilair situation where the party needed to get past a purple worm in a crumbling valley (they where level 2 or 3)

made it a skill challenge to break the magic binding the worm to the valley

was very entertaining....

Make it clear the beast is too mighty to fight

 

[MrMyth]

The rules are so unclear on the verticality of AoE's it's ridiculous. You could just as easily say that a burst is spherical, and therefore if you had a Burst 2 that was 2 squares above the ground, only 1 square that was below the center would actually hit the ground. So yeah, he could technically use that tactic in that case, but then it would only hit one person.

Why in the world would the burst be spherical? The vertical grid shouldn't operate any different than a horizontal grid. The rules seem pretty clear on how a Burst works:

"Area burst (number) within (number) squares: To use an area burst power, choose a square within the range indicated by the second number. The power affects targets in that square or within a number of squares equal to the first number."

A Burst 2 would hit the center square, and all squares within 2 of it in all directions - up, down, left and right, and along each and every diagonal.

Now, if there is some specific area of the rules that gives reason to believe the rules suddenly operate differently in three dimensions rather than two, then I will concede the point. But nothing in the description of the area itself indicates that Bursts and Blasts would be spherical, rather than cubical. (At least on the grid - one can certainly feel free to picture them still as fireballs and such, while translating that into cubes on the battlemap.)

 

[Lacyon]

But nothing in the description of the area itself indicates that Bursts and Blasts would be spherical, rather than cubical.

Spheres and cubes are the same thing under Chebyshev distance.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Why in the world would the burst be spherical? The vertical grid shouldn't operate any different than a horizontal grid. The rules seem pretty clear on how a Burst works:

"Area burst (number) within (number) squares: To use an area burst power, choose a square within the range indicated by the second number. The power affects targets in that square or within a number of squares equal to the first number."

A Burst 2 would hit the center square, and all squares within 2 of it in all directions - up, down, left and right, and along each and every diagonal.

Now, if there is some specific area of the rules that gives reason to believe the rules suddenly operate differently in three dimensions rather than two, then I will concede the point. But nothing in the description of the area itself indicates that Bursts and Blasts would be spherical, rather than cubical. (At least on the grid - one can certainly feel free to picture them still as fireballs and such, while translating that into cubes on the battlemap.)

That's my point. There's also nothing that says that it would be cubical when applied across a vertical distance. There's also nothing to say that the entire burst takes place in the same height plane. There's just a complete lack of rules surrounding height and AoE's, so I think it's a little weak to suddenly say "Well, he can fly up 22 squares, then target 10' over the PC's heads and still hit them with the Burst."

Heck, according CS, they're infinite height anyway, so none of this should affect the Wizard or a Fighter using his Burst 1 Powers.

 

[Lacyon]

That's my point. There's also nothing that says that it would be cubical when applied across a vertical distance.

Except the rules quoted above.

Squares 2 squares above the targeted square are "within a number of squares equal to the first number". As are squares 2 up and 2 north. Etc.

This is actually what the rules say, custserv confusion notwithstanding.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Except the rules quoted above.

Squares 2 squares above the targeted square are "within a number of squares equal to the first number". As are squares 2 up and 2 north. Etc.

This is actually what the rules say, custserv confusion notwithstanding.

The rules and the examples (with diagrams) given in the PHB only focus on a battle grid layout. They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect. Yes, you could extrapolate that it goes out in all directions, I'm just saying that there's no guidance on this. Also, does it make a lot of sense for the Fighter powers to also have a vertical component? Or take my Dragonborn. I took Englarged Breath Weapon, which makes it a Close Blast 5. According to your rules, that would be 5 squares of vertical as well, meaning an effective volume of 125 squares! Doesn't that seem just a bit overpowered for a close blast weapon?

All I'm saying is that in this example you have the dragon on one plane, PC's on another. As such, I would keep the fight simple and treat all effects as taking place on one plane a they do the other 99.9% of the time that you're playing.

 

[MrMyth]

The rules and the examples (with diagrams) given in the PHB only focus on a battle grid layout. They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect.

They don't specifically mention any vertical aspect. They do specifically mention how the powers work, in terms that function perfectly fine for vertical dimension, without any indication we should suddenly stop following what the rules rather clearly say. And while the diagrims show only horizontal instances, there is nothing in the rules that is similarly restricted.

Yes, you could extrapolate that it goes out in all directions, I'm just saying that there's no guidance on this.

Sure, but the way the rules are written does not in any way imply a limitation to a single horizontal plane. Yes, it would be nice for them to have outright discussed it, but your interpretation requires specifically adding in changes to how they describe the rules working.

Also, does it make a lot of sense for the Fighter powers to also have a vertical component?

Well... yes. I would certainly say a fighter who is attacking all enemies in a Close Burst 1 - which is to say, swinging his sword at every enemy in reach - would be allowed to attack both an enemy in front of him, as well as an enemy directly over his head. I would, in fact, be quite appalled at a DM who ruled otherwise.

Or take my Dragonborn. I took Englarged Breath Weapon, which makes it a Close Blast 5. According to your rules, that would be 5 squares of vertical as well, meaning an effective volume of 125 squares! Doesn't that seem just a bit overpowered for a close blast weapon?

Not at all, since I don't expect to fight a bunch of soldiers who suddenly form a human pyramid. There circumstances in which that would be abusable are essentially non-existent. And if there is a bunch of bats, all flying at different heights, but all within a few squares of each other, I would find it extremely underpowered for a DM to start claiming the wizard's fireball can only hit one of them.

All I'm saying is that in this example you have the dragon on one plane, PC's on another. As such, I would keep the fight simple and treat all effects as taking place on one plane a they do the other 99.9% of the time that you're playing.

That doesn't make things simple at all - it raises all sorts of questions. In fact, if you are forcing the dragon to only cast his Lightning Burst down the relative plane between himself and a PC, it would mean the attack is reduced to a 1 x 3 square, instead of a 3 x 3 square. That certainly seems more complicated than just running the rules as written. It might make things easier for the PCs, sure, and you are certainly free to add in house rules to that effect in a game you are running - but it seems a needless change to the rules that only really produces more questions and complications.

 

[-Avalon-]

I think that we have already discussed that dragon breath is not a flat plane...