How to stop Tumblers?

[arwenarrowny]

There's either a feat or trick in Complete Scoundrel that, IMO, has the potential to be totally broken. Basically, it allows you to treat an opponent as flat-footed if you tumble through their space. So once you get your Tumble score up high enough, it's sneak attack every round!

Actually, not quite. It's a skill trick, and as such can only be used once per encounter (unless you have levels in Uncanny Trickster, which could get you to twice per encounter). Don't get me wrong, it's still powerful, but nowhere near as bad as it looks at first glance.

 

[Victim]

There's either a feat or trick in Complete Scoundrel that, IMO, has the potential to be totally broken. Basically, it allows you to treat an opponent as flat-footed if you tumble through their space. So once you get your Tumble score up high enough, it's sneak attack every round!

Skill Tricks are limited to once per encounter. Even so, 1 sneak attack per round isn't that great. If the rogue isn't sneaking attacking versus eligible targets, then something is wrong.

 

[arwenarrowny]

Also, keep in mind that the main thing you will accomplish by making a fundamental change to a rule like the tumble DCs (with most players) is to make them feel that they are being punished/screwed for building an effective character. If you feel that the tumble skill doesn't work properly, I think a far better fix would be to introduce a feat that either

A)lets the person being tumbled past make an opposed check to gain an AoO OR

B)increases the DC to tumble past the person by, say, 1/2 his BAB.

This way, you tell your players that yes, you think the tumble skill is broken, but rather than introducing a rule that is a blanket nerfing of the skill, you're introducing the possibility that certain opponents will know tactics that are advantageous with respect to fighting tumblers.

 

[smootrk]

Just have the occasional bad guy hold back an attack (ready vs approach)... soon as said tumbler enters the threatened square (regardless of how) the 'turn' reverts back to the 'bad-guy' allowing his attacks (and likely a Full Attack routine at that).

 

[Moon-Lancer]

you cant do that. You can only ready a standard action, and you cant hold a turn and take it in the middle of someone elses action unless its a ready action and again, thats only a standard action.

 

[Unkabear]

Even if your tumbler gets through if he is a rogue then he really won’t be dealing out the damage unless he gets into a good flank. A warrior dumping into power attack will still deal out more damage on the average, and a wizard will still dominate the battle! Committing skill points to something means that your player wants to do something. If you get frustrated at them doing it make it harder in some situations to do it (tight corridor & a line of enemies takes that DC through the roof) but don’t permanently nerf it.

Taking tumble (and in a way SA) away from a rogue is like taking Power Attack away from the fighter. The rogue needs to get into position to Sneak Attack, once a rogue is committed to battle he is taking quite a risk, usually he does not have the AC or the HP that the fighter has and unless he can get in and out quickly he may very well be in serious trouble. So if you are getting terribly annoyed with this tactic make it dangerous not harder for the rogue to tumble in. A couple of archers in the back to harry the team, or a larger number of lower level mobs can really make a rogue think about if it is worth it. But don’t do this every time or your player might feel that you are out to get him. It is like a DM getting mad at SA and suddenly the only monsters that the party is fighting is undead. Every player needs a chance to shine or they may just walk away from the game. If the rogue becomes delegated to only come forth when there is a trap or lock to open then they may just replace that character to be like the shining fighter that wades in and sweeps out mobs from his path, or the Wizard that wipes out hordes of mobs with a single blast.

If this is a fighter tumbling…then more power to him, he doesn’t have that many skill points and that is a cross class skill. If it is a monk…come on, you need to give the monk any legup you can offer. If this is a Scout…similar to rogue but not as location dependant as the rogue to get his bonus and without a serious feat chain to get in more than one attack in each round with their bonus.

 

[beepeearr]

Sword and Fist had a Rules variant called counter tumble, basically the tumbler had to beat the standard DC and a tumble check of whoever they are tumbling past. I guess they never added it back in during the switch to 3.5, good rule though.

 

[DreadArchon]

I still don't get what the fuss is about. Near as I can tell, Tumble is already less than awesome. I sometimes cut it from tight builds (three skills for detections, two for concealment, disable device, open lock, UMD, knowledges, social skills, etc. usually get priority), and many builds don't work with it because of armor penalties, and even then it doesn't always come up and it may not save you from much if it fails. I see no reason to nerf it from a balance perspective.

From an in-character logic perspective I see even less reason. Tumble lets you move without dropping your guard. If an enemy can't just ignore your guard willy-nilly when you're standing still, and if you can hold your guard just as easily while moving as you can while standing still (which is why you put points into tumble in the first place), it's utterly ridiculous to say "You suddenly forget what you're doing and get hit, because it doesn't make sense to let you do what a level 1 commoner couldn't... well, yeah, even the commoner could have defended well enough to not provoke an AoO had he been standing still, but you still can't learn to, because your legs are moving and you can only operate two of your limbs at once when looking at a dragon."

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Actually, not quite. It's a skill trick, and as such can only be used once per encounter...

Ahhh, I missed that. It's not bad then.

 

[FireLance]

Aside from the Knight special ability, how can one prevent or at least make more difficult the tumble roll to move through one's threatened zone without provoking an Attack of Opportunity?

Stand in the middle of difficult terrain, or make your own.

Anyway, I agree that tumbling to avoid an AOO is not broken. First off, you need to spend a move action, which generally means that you have a single attack left. Second, a DC 15 Tumble check still requires you to move at half speed, which to me represents a significant amount of attention paid to careful movement on the part of the tumbler. It is only at higher levels that it becomes fairly easy to tumble at full speed, and this is well within what I would expect higher-level characters to be capable of.

I wonder if some of the objections to the static DCs of Tumble checks may have arisen from the implicit idea that tactics that worked against lower-level PCs should continue to work against high-level PCs. I don't see why this should be the case. You don't use sleep against mid-level PCs, and you don't use deep slumber against high-level PCs. Similarly, if the wall of mooks tactic that a BBEG relied on to protect him at low levels no longer works against some high-level PCs, perhaps it is time for him to change his defensive strategy.