How to stop Tumblers?

[Sparafucile]

That is merely WotC's "plausible" explanation of what Attacks of Opportunity are. It's fluff.

In reality, AoOs are merely a game mechanic used to level the playing field due to the fact that DND has a circular initiative system. The "nobody can act" problem is more evident to people in a circular initiative system than it is in the earlier 1E and 2E random initiative systems (although the problem still existed in those systems).

WotC came up with the game mechanic first to solve the initiative problem, then came up with the fluff explanation of why it occurs. Not the other way around. . . .

. . . Over time, it became part of the culture (just like DCs), but don't limit your thinking to "this is how it has always been".

Yeah, but that argument works both ways. AoO IS a mechanic, and it's plausible to believe that higher level characters of certain classes can circumvent particular mechanics, as part of the game's design.

For example, a spell description that requires a reflex save for half damage is a mechanic informed by the game's rules. abilities like Evasion and Improved Evasion are class abilities that allow the results of those spells to be circumvented.

Tumble is a skill that some characters of certain classes choose to max out in order to circumvent a particular game mechanic to their advantage. It's a choice limited by class, and the spending of the skill point.

You think it's overpowered, but then again, it's affecting AoO and the ability to move through an opponent. . . both circumstances exists based on the game culture informed by teh rule's mecanics.

As for Improved Ovverrun, the comparison is invalid. Rogues get acess to skill points and great variety of class skills. Fighters get bonus fighter feats. The degreee of access for both kinds of actions are not so easy to equate to one another.

I guess I just don't see the issue here.

 

[Stalker0]

How many magic items improve Overrun?

To my mind, debating tumble in terms of overrun is pointless. Overrun hurts an opponent, it knocks him down, making him more vulnerable to you and everything else. Tumble helps yourself not get hurt. They aren't comparable.

 

[Legildur]

To my mind, debating tumble in terms of overrun is pointless. Overrun hurts an opponent, it knocks him down, making him more vulnerable to you and everything else. Tumble helps yourself not get hurt. They aren't comparable.

Not necessarily true. As already mentioned, the target of an Overrun may choose to avoid the Overrunner (unless they have the Improved Overrun feat). So they are pretty much comparable in what they achieve - except that one is better suited to brutes and one to mobile characters with specific training.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Ok, your right, improved overrun sucks compared to tumble. Congrads, you just convinced me that improved overrun needs work.

So how do we make improved overrun not suck? Perhaps a feat. The feat in question though just lets you prevent the avoidance. I think overrun was never supposed to allow for that kind of movement in the first place, but they wanted people to avoid the check. In other words, using improved overrun as a way to mimic tumble is broken becuse it was never really supposed to be any kind of fully working substitute.

Now I could be wrong, but didn’t errata make a change to overrun… or was it bullrush? Couldn’t you bulrush or overrun on a charge but something about having your ally move out of your charge break it? not sure. Seems to me that overrun wasn’t meant to do tumble job.

your missing the point that tumble cant attack and overrun can, the point of overrun is to knock someone down. Tumble will never be able to knock someone down. That’s a big point. It doesn’t matter how many bullets you make, that assumes that all qualities in of themselves are the same value while they are not. It’s an opposed check because your attacking, not because your tying to get from point A to point B. Did you expect overrun would be like tumble, and still be able to trip?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I fell into your logic trap. I admit that. By showing many reasons why overrun sucks, it makes it seem like tumble is much better in comparison, but it doesn’t avoid that tumble is not attack while overrun is. You get attacked or may be knocked prone because it is an attack. Tumble is not an opposed roll because its not trying to beat anything. It’s not attacking, nor is it threatening in any direct way. It’s very different from tumble (as you have shown us). this may be a straw man, but we cant compare classes by how many class features they have. We compare classes to what the features do and how they interact with the rest of the game world. Overrun and tumble server very different functions in the game, and are like comparing druids to wizards.

They do different things and can achieve very different results.

the wizard is tumble. it does what it does and that’s cast spells, and it does that very well, in fact for its function its the best at it.

a druid though, is not quit as good of a caster as the wizard, but it also can melee and attack using strength.

I do see how overrun got the shaft though in terms of attacks. I think that needs to be taken up with the other attacks though, like trip, not trying to compare it with tu

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

My issue with Tumble is not avoiding the AoOs, it's with moving through an opponent's square and he is unable to do anything about it. The most capable (core rules) swordsman in the world is not able to cover the doorway and protect the King.

Rogue: I tumble PAST the guards!

DM: Ooh, sorry. I just decided to nerf the tumble rules to make it an opposed check. All those ranks you chose to spend in it, effectively a fraction of your character's essence, needs to be equally counteracted by the Knights' BAB, which they get for no investment cost just for leveling up, because getting tumbled past hurts their feelings.

Rogue: Umm, it's not like I'm leaving them in any worse condition, like tripping or something.

DM: Even so...

Rogue: Fine, then. I stand a safe distance away, pull out a scroll of Lightning, and blast the King with my UMD check. Unless foiling your plans with this particular skill check will just result in you nerfing UMD as well.

As others have said, the classic Knights guarding the doorway scenario falls flat in mid- to high-level D&D for a large variety of reasons.

Tumble is not a spell. It is not a feat. It should not have the power to blow through a Dragon's square with the Dragon (or the super trained sword master) not being able to flatten the Rogue like a pancake. JMO.

As the PHB (page 62, sidebar) says about skills, regular (real-life ) people are assumed to have little to no actual ranks in skills, and can get by because all the tasks we do are generally simple, DC 10 or lower. Further, we can usually take 10. So, right off the bat, skills were never intended to be "mundane," but rather fantastical. Besides, I'm of the opinion that D&D is over-saturated with magic dependency anyway. Any method of solving a problem, like getting from point A to B, that is done without blatent, unnecessary recourse to magic ("The next town is 50 miles away? Teleport!"), I support as much as possible.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, (yet another) vote for does not need fixing.

As for ways to cripple a Tumbler by the rules, the most efficient way is to not even bother doing things to up the DC. Leave the option there to tempt its use. Use as many effects as you can to reduce speed. I'm playing a battlefield control caster now and it's great fun! At low level, Web is amazing (well, it never stops being). Eventually, with Evard's, even if the person isn't grappled, speed through the field is cut in half! That means the tumbler is only going 1/3 his base speed! (doubled doubling is a tripling, right?) That's 10' for a move action (base 30), very much not worth it. Many other effects out there to halve speed.

Another spell option for low levels (hard to hit with, though) is Ray of Enfeeblement. Make his light load a medium or heavy and watch the check penalties bury his tumble mod. Speed reduction will taste bitter, too. ^_^
Another way to "beat" a tumbler is to let him flank and sneak once, then full attack with the BBEG. If I'm DMing, I'd take that trade any day!

 

[hong]

In accordance with the physics of D&D, I just look on Tumble as an instance of quantum tunneling. At low (energy) levels, a person doesn't have enough momentum to penetrate a solid barrier. However, at higher (energy) levels, this barrier is no longer as solid as it seems. It all makes sense.

 

[IndyPendant]

Hrmf. I apologize for the tone of my second post in this thread; it was definitely over the top and I deserved the (mostly polite, thanks) smackdown.

My excuse (and it is an excuse, I admit) : I was overtired when typing it.

 

[Darklone]

In accordance with the physics of D&D, I just look on Tumble as an instance of quantum tunneling. At low (energy) levels, a person doesn't have enough momentum to penetrate a solid barrier. However, at higher (energy) levels, this barrier is no longer as solid as it seems. It all makes sense.

Looks like you have your "physicists week"?