How to stop Tumblers?

[hong]

I've just had an Eureka moment. Well, no, I actually had my Eureka moment some time back and I've been waiting for AGES to post about it.

 

[KarinsDad]

Rogue: Umm, it's not like I'm leaving them in any worse condition, like tripping or something.

The use of moving through a square is huge, especially a square where there is a "front line" of opponents and getting around it any other way involves using up more than a move action.

Flank and Sneak Attack.

Flank and Sneak Attack is the reason Tumble Through should be an opposed roll.

Rogues (and Monks and Bards) typically do not Tumble to move past a group of opponents, they do so to flank opponents.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, but that argument works both ways. AoO IS a mechanic, and it's plausible to believe that higher level characters of certain classes can circumvent particular mechanics, as part of the game's design.

The issue AoOs address is the "nobody gets to act" problem.

Correcting that problem at low level, but then turning around and introducing the problem back in at high level is poor game design (and Tumble is not the only culprit, Combat Casting, Spring Attack, and several other feats / PrC abilities do this as well).

The low level Rogues cannot skip past the merchant's low level guards, but the high level Rogues can skip past the king's high level guards no problem. The Rogues get better at being stealthy, but the Guards do not get better at protecting.

 

[KarinsDad]

your missing the point that tumble cant attack and overrun can, the point of overrun is to knock someone down.

The point of Overrun is to get past someone. The attacker does not decide whether the defender avoids or blocks, so he has no control over it. If being used to knock someone down, the defender can avoid all day long and the attacker never achieves that particular goal.

The point of Improved Overun is to knock someone down.

Apples and Oranges.

 

[KarinsDad]

As the PHB (page 62, sidebar) says about skills, regular (real-life ) people are assumed to have little to no actual ranks in skills, and can get by because all the tasks we do are generally simple, DC 10 or lower. Further, we can usually take 10. So, right off the bat, skills were never intended to be "mundane," but rather fantastical.

Focused does not mean fantastical.

Nothing in that sidebar indicates that the skills themselves should allow capabilities beyond normal human capability.

 

[KarinsDad]

Eventually, with Evard's, even if the person isn't grappled, speed through the field is cut in half! That means the tumbler is only going 1/3 his base speed! (doubled doubling is a tripling, right?) That's 10' for a move action (base 30), very much not worth it. Many other effects out there to halve speed.

This is incorrect.

A Rogue can attempt to Tumble Through an Evard's all he wants, but it doesn't matter. Evards automatically attacks him. It does not do so with Attacks of Opportunity.

Run through, walk through, tumble through, jump over, it doesn't matter. He still has to make the grapple check for the spell.

If he avoids the grapple, there is no reason to tumble. He should move out as quickly as possible so that he does not have to make another grapple check (for those people who use the interpretation that once he makes the grapple check, he cannot just stand in the area of effect and be immune from it from then on).

Other creatures within the area of effect are typically grappled, so they do not threaten. Hence, there is rarely a reason to tumble through such an area.

 

[Darklone]

Focused does not mean fantastical.

Nothing in that sidebar indicates that the skills themselves should allow capabilities beyond normal human capability.

Don't you remember the good old example how a high level ranger can track a wizard inside a dungeon without any problems? Wizard BBEG flees through a door, the hallway beyong has 20 doors. Ranger rolls one check and knows where the BBEG went.

That's pretty much beyong normal human capability.

Or what about calculating jumping distances?

 

[phindar]

The low level Rogues cannot skip past the merchant's low level guards, but the high level Rogues can skip past the king's high level guards no problem..

If I can throw my lot in with KarinsDad here, this is a point that I think keeps getting buried. Maybe its the title of the topic, which seems to be saying, "How do we screw players out of Tumble?" Opposed checks don't screw the players out of tumbling, in fact at lower levels, it increases the chances they will be successful. A 1st level rogue has a better chance of tumbling though the hex of a CR 1 orc with an opposed roll than making a DC 25 roll. The fact that the odds remain about the same against an evenly matched opponents as the character levels is one of the selling points of the opposed roll (to me, anyway, YMMV).

If they were hiding, you'd oppose them with a spot check. If they were lying, you'd opposed the with a sense motive. If they are somersaulting between your legs, it seems odd that you wouldn't get something to oppose them. Its not like all creatures are honorbound not to strike someone tumbling at a certain level of proficiency. ("Thog, why did you not kill the elf?" "His cartwheels were perfect my liege!")

The other thing I like about the opposed roll goes back to one of my bedrock beliefs about gaming. No action in combat can be taken with absolute certainty.

 

[Hussar]

The other thing I like about the opposed roll goes back to one of my bedrock beliefs about gaming. No action in combat can be taken with absolute certainty.

You require opposed rolls to move? I can move, or even double move within combat with absolute certainty, so long as I stay out of reach of course.

There's the point right there I think. Tumble is just movement. Specialized movement yes, but still movement. You are not affecting anyone else, just moving. It allows you to move through a threatened square without provoking. It also allows you to move through an occupied square. That's it. It's not helping you in any other way. You gain no bonuses to attack or damage. No one else is actually affected in any way by your use of this skill.

That's why it's not opposed. When I hide, I am affecting the spotter. Can he see me? Yes or no. If he can't, he cannot attack me or do anything to me whatsoever. If I bluff the guard, he must take certain actions based on my bluff. If I tumble past that dragon, the dragon is not affected. He can still attack me on his turn. He just doesn't gain an extra attack because of my movement. Nothing is being taken away from him.

On a side note, in six years of playing 3e, I've seen two tumble checks made in combat. Does this actually come up in anyone's game?

 

[hong]

You require opposed rolls to move? I can move, or even double move within combat with absolute certainty, so long as I stay out of reach of course.

"Make your movement roll to put one foot in front of the other."

"... 2. I rolled a 2!"

"You fail to put one foot in front of the other!"