Paizo How will OGL 1.1 affect Pazio, PF1 and P2?

[Morrus]

The one thing that concerns me about that is if they do that, and WotC files suit against them on the grounds that PF2 infringes on 3.5 D&D (since that's the SRD that it uses) – which I don't think is likely, but then again I didn't think it was likely that WotC would try to kill the OGL v1.0a entirely – then Paizo might be in an awkward position if WotC asserts that them (Paizo) using the OGL and 3.5 SRD in PF2 is a tacit admission that its game mechanics are based off of D&D. (That quote above says otherwise, but I wonder how convincing a judge would find that.)

For me the worry is more that if they do, they aren't the ones who will fight this for us.

 

[Alzrius]

They would need to proffer a specific, compelling instance of a breach of the OGL 1.0a terms. They can't just say that using the Open Game License is in and of itself an admission of intent to breach copyright, that would be cartoonish and absurd.

I don't think you understood what I was saying; I was purporting that if Paizo released PF2 without using the OGL, putting forward the idea that the game is different enough from D&D that it stands on its own as an independent product, then the fact that it previously used the OGL could potentially undercut that claim.

 

[JThursby]

I don't think you understood what I was saying;

Let me see if I understand correctly then.

The one thing that concerns me about that is if they do that, and WotC files suit against them on the grounds that PF2 infringes on 3.5 D&D (since that's the SRD that it uses)

This is what you think Wizards would sue Paizo over: their current product line being a copyright infringement on their IP. The evidence they would bring is that Pathfinder used to be an OGL product, and then re-released as a re-tooled version without the use of the OGL anywhere. The argument being that because Pathfinder originally depended on the OGL it as a product is inextricably linked to D&D, and making an OGL-less version is a breach of copyrighted material because of that previous association. I do not think that has any merit.

 

[CapnZapp]

I would very much like to be able to just profess general encouragement and to offer vaguely well-meaning hopes for the best.

But I can't. I found the PF2 rules so excruciatingly ill fitted for their purpose that I can't turn away from the realization that if this here OGL debacle prompts Paizo to switch to another set of rules to use for their future Golarion adventures, that'd be a good thing.

 

[Alzrius]

Let me see if I understand correctly then.

This is what you think Wizards would sue Paizo over: their current product line being a copyright infringement on their IP.

You missed the part where I said "if they do that." The "do that" in question was in reference to Morrus' post about stripping the OGL out of PF2 and publishing it that way (albeit with a different license to let third-parties publish compatible material).

Their current product line is the one that right now is under the OGL, which hasn't been revoked yet, and so isn't an infringement. Publishing it as it is, without the OGL, though? That might be.

The argument being that because Pathfinder originally depended on the OGL it as a product is inextricably linked to D&D

No, that because Pathfinder was originally dependent on the OGL and the 3.5 SRD, releasing a version of it that was identical to the one they're currently making, save for stripping out the OGL, would be potentially an infringement on WotC's copyright. Or rather, that WotC could potentially push that claim.

 

[Morrus]

I would very much like to be able to just profess general encouragement and to offer vaguely well-meaning hopes for the best.

But I can't.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[JThursby]

Their current product line is the one that right now is under the OGL, which hasn't been revoked yet, and so isn't an infringement. Publishing it as it is, without the OGL, though? That might be.

From the Paizo management quote I posted earlier, it appears that Paizo believes 2e is distinct enough that it could have been published without the OGL (probably with some minor alterations to some spell and creature names). They've already done their homework and do not depend on the old SRD.

 

[Alzrius]

From the Paizo management quote I posted earlier, it appears that Paizo believes 2e is distinct enough that it could have been published without the OGL (probably with some minor alterations to some spell and creature names). They've already done their homework and do not depend on the old SRD.

That's the claim they're making; it's far from inconceivable that WotC would refute that idea, and whether or not they're correct would be up for a judge to decide.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I think you underestimate the war chest of Hasbro's legal team. And Paizo is likely their enemy #1 in making OGL 1.1.

It's not always about the the size of war chests, it's sometimes is the Juice Worth The Squeeze?

 

[FormerLurker]

Paizo doesn't pay $10 to print a book. Even ENP doesn't pay anywhere near that, and our economies of scale are literally orders of magnitude lower than Paizo's. When you're printing that many books the cost per unit is tiny. Trust me, I do this for a living.

Ballparking based on the "20/20/20/40" rule where you spend 20% on printing, 20% on distribution, and the store/ retailer gets 40% with the publisher getting 20% to offset costs. Because it's a good baseline. With a $50 book that's $10 to Paizo and $10 to the printer.
Not precisely accurate, at Paizo also sells directly so they also get a taste of the retailer money. And there's also now shipping costs from the printer to factor in, which have gone up and up.
But it's a good rule of thumb and starting point for back-of-the-envelope math.
It's not like anyone is sharing more precise numbers...

Of course, the number I threw out was just printing and didn't take into account the other production costs: art, writing, editing, layout. And since Paizo doesn't collect from crowdsourcing, that would all have been paid in advance.

Take what it cost you to do a Level Up core book then triple the art budget and that's how much they might be in the whole. For three or four books.