D&D (2024) How's the adoption of the new Goliath types going?

[Voadam]

The little that the PH gives us to work from is that the subtype is based on the giants in the family line. Not on choices of the individual Goliath or a random elemental chaos expression or whatever. They are essentially planetouched but for giants instead of outsiders.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

The little that the PH gives us to work from is that the subtype is based on the giants in the family line. Not on choices of the individual Goliath or a random elemental chaos expression or whatever. They are essentially planetouched but for giants instead of outsiders.

Then I would actively the lore they DO have, if they are separate lines along elemental divisions. That makes them even less cohesive as a defined species

 

[Azzy]

Note that goliaths who have not learned their Giant Ancestry ability are the same as each other, and the wording of the ability is this: "You are descended from Giants. Choose one of the following benefits-". It does NOT say "there are five different subraces of goliath that live separately and have different cultures". You might envision a coming of age ceremony in which it is revealed what kind of giant the newly adult goliath most strongly favours. Or maybe the choose themselves, and the power is conferred by their tattoos.

That's pretty much where I was going with them for my setting. Young adult goliaths receive a giant rune tattoo as part of their coming of age ceremony that awakens their giant ancestry. I guess it's an easy reach.

 

[Staffan]

I didn't buy it, but didn't the giant sourcebook retcon in something along the lines of all giants being descended from some ur-giant species? If so, it kind of makes sense that goliaths are descended from the same ur-giant and can learn to call upon the elemental nature of any one of the proper giant types.

 

[Voadam]

Note that goliaths who have not learned their Giant Ancestry ability are the same as each other, and the wording of the ability is this: "You are descended from Giants. Choose one of the following benefits-". It does NOT say "there are five different subraces of goliath that live separately and have different cultures". You might envision a coming of age ceremony in which it is revealed what kind of giant the newly adult goliath most strongly favours. Or maybe the choose themselves, and the power is conferred by their tattoos.

Two paragraphs above that in the PH in the two-paragraph Goliath general narrative description section it explicitly says "Goliaths have physical characteristics that are reminiscent of the giants in their family lines."

You seem to be taking the position that technically the special trait giant ancestry is not explicitly linked to the separate narrative giant family physical characteristics and so does not need to match up, so you could get a blue-skinned white-haired physical characteristic frost giant-descended goliath with no fire giant actual ancestry yet still choose the fire giant ancestry special trait fire's burn and not explicitly contradict the PH lore. I think a more natural reading is that ancestry is supposed to indicate the giant type(s) in the family tree (which could be more than one). It would be kind of odd to have a specifically ancestry power that does not connect to the actual giant type(s) ancestries in your family (which themselves are strong enough to affect your goliath's physical characteristics in type specific ways to look like those specific types). Reading Giant Ancestry as a technical label without narrative connection to the goliath's actual giant type ancestry is one way you could go, though I think it will be a minority reading of the text and its specific narrative elements.

Also I don't see any indication that the Giant Ancestry special trait in the race section is learned. All the references seem to be inborn and inherent from the ancestry. I could see not knowing you have the ability (they are limited use and not automatic) until you learn about it somehow, but it does not have any indications that it is something that can be learned such as a class power you get after advancing a level or learning the basics of the class.

"As a goliath you have these special traits"

"Giant Ancestry. You are descended from giants. Choose one of the following benefits-a supernatural boon from your ancestry"

The elven and tiefling lineage higher level spells in contrast are explicitly learned at a higher level.

"When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table."

It seems odd to have even those limited circumstances for a species ability to be learning specific things. I would think class and background would grant learning and species would be all about inherent species abilities, especially as the 24 PH species seem to have dropped all the 14PH racial training abilities like dwarf combat training and specific tool proficiency or the elven subraces' weapon training. If a species trait is dependent on learning then it indicates that there could be those who could narratively not learn the ability and therefore not have it. It is odd that the drow lineage grants you knowledge of dancing lights but then at 3rd level you have to narratively learn faerie fire and at 5th darkness. Narratively I think the species lineage powers would work better as a more sorcerer style coming into the power of knowing a spell framing. Sort of the magic power growing into specific new electron rings with the individual's growth in the lineage granted magic. It is doubly odd as it is a change from the 14 PH drow and tiefling wording of "When you reach 3rd level you can cast". It saves word count over "can cast" but not fewer characters and "know" which they used at 1st level would have worked as well for 3rd and 5th level and saved character space over learning.

Adulthood rituals and magic tattoos granting type specific giant powers tying into the goliath's giant family ancestry but not the specific type of giant ancestry are neat ideas but seem to be in the neat variant category from the little descriptive text we have to work with.

I am a fan of reskinning for specific games and concepts, I had a PC in my last game with a reskinned warforged artificer as an actual technologist robot, a human druid as a Werewolf the Apocalypse style werewolf and a shifter barbarian as a WtA werebear. But I really like having a default flavor for the game for me to accept or reject and modify. I am glad I had default D&D (and multiple variations across the editions) kobold flavor for the kobold bard and me to work with to riff off of.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Two paragraphs above that in the PH in the two-paragraph Goliath general narrative description section it explicitly says "Goliaths have physical characteristics that are reminiscent of the giants in their family lines."

Sure, so do humans who live together in the same village. Having ancestral features does not make you a different species.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The little that the PH gives us to work from is that the subtype is based on the giants in the family line. Not on choices of the individual Goliath or a random elemental chaos expression or whatever. They are essentially planetouched but for giants instead of outsiders.

I don’t see giant as being “elemental” in the Aristotlian alchemical sense that D&D elementals are. In Northern European mythology giants represent the destructive power of the Earth: volcanoes become fire giants, glaciers become frost giants, storms become storm giants, and so on.

Goliaths are diminished versions of that. That could be through interbreeding with humans (sounds painful) or other types of giant, or it could be due to separation from the giant power source/homeland/deities.

 

[Voadam]

Sure, so do humans who live together in the same village. Having ancestral features does not make you a different species.

I think Goliaths being in the 5e PH as a species makes them a species in D&D regardless of their lineage and ancestry. I think the term ancestry though has some narrative meaning.

I think of the various different giants as different species though similar to dwarf and human with giant more of a genus or family type Linnaean categorization. A fire giant is a different species from a frost giant but both are still giants with more of a connection than say dragonborn.

I don't have the Bigby's 5e Giant book so I am mostly going off of the stuff in the MM and Volos and the 24 PH.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think of the various different giants as different species though similar to dwarf and human with giant more of a genus or family type Linnaean categorization. A fire giant is a different species from a frost giant but both are still giants with more of a connection than say dragonborn.

I would avoid trying to apply modern biology to a fantasy setting, as it make no kind of sense. Why should a fire giant an a frost giant not be able to interbreed? Physically, both are similar to humans only bigger (which is physically impossible in and of itself). And if they can freely interbreed, they are the same species, says science.

So, it makes more sense that it's the kind of magic they are connected to that makes them different, not biology. Magic also explains how their legs don't break when they stand up too. Goliaths connect to the same magic, but to a lesser degree.

I think the term ancestry though has some narrative meaning.

Sure. There are rumours that my dad had some Mediterranean ancestry, which means I do to. But so far as I know I'm still human.

 

[Voadam]

I don’t see giant as being “elemental” in the Aristotlian alchemical sense that D&D elementals are.

I am referring to them narratively as elemental chaos associated there in the 4e elemental origin lore that giants had in 4e. The elemental chaos has a bunch more association with Chaos in my mind than the pre-4e elemental planes. Mixing disparate elemental themes in 4e elemental chaos monsters to create hybrid elemental combos was common in the first three 4e MMs.
5e combined the pure elemental planes with 4e's elemental chaos and had the chaotic hybrid areas be close to the prime and at the borders of the four elemental rings as they make a circle.

4e MM:
GIANTS ARE HULKING HUMANOID CREATURES with fundamental ties to the world, be that bedrock, uncontrollable fires, raging storms, or inevitable death. The first giants were massive titans of fire and frost, storm and stone. These giants labored under primordial lords to shape the newly forming world.
In the eons since the first days, giants have multiplied and moved on, finding places to call their own in planes beyond the Elemental Chaos, including the Shadowfell and the Feywild, and even in the realm of their masters’ deific foes, the Astral Sea. However, giants prefer the world their labor helped create, and giants of every variety can be found upon it. Indeed, when the primordials retreated from the world, one of the first empires of that dawn era was one created by giants, and their slaves were the children of Moradin. But those heady days are long vanished.

4e Monster Vault:
Shortly after the world emerged from the smoldering forges of the primordials, titans stepped forth to help explore and shape the new creation. They walked atop the world’s still-cooling crust and swam through its churning seas, yet even in their immensity, the titans were too few to explore the vast world. They created giants as a servant race, modeling them to resemble the titans’ own elemental natures. With the aid of the giants, the titans spread out across the world. In time, the giants enslaved some of the nascent races of the gods, most notably the dwarves. Under the giants’ steady gazes and heavy hands, these industrious slaves brought beauty and refinement to the world.
A Shattered Legacy: When the Dawn War began, titans and giants joined the side of their creators in the battle against the gods.

4e DMG:
The Elemental Chaos and the Abyss
At the foundation of the world, the Elemental Chaos churns like an ever-changing tempest of clashing elements—fire and lightning, earth and water, whirlwinds and living thunder. Just as the gods originated in the Astral Sea, the first inhabitants of the Elemental Chaos were the primordials, creatures of raw elemental power. They shaped the world from the raw material of the Elemental Chaos, and if they had their way, the world would be torn back down and returned to raw materials. The gods have given the world permanence utterly alien to the primordials’ nature.
The Elemental Chaos approximates a level plane on which travelers can move, but the landscape is broken up by rivers of lightning, seas of fire, floating earthbergs, ice mountains, and other formations of raw elemental forces. However, it is possible to make one’s way slowly down into lower layers of the Elemental Chaos. At its bottom, it turns into a swirling maelstrom that grows darker and deadlier as it descends.
At the bottom of that maelstrom is the Abyss, the home of demons. Tharizdun, the Chained God, planted a shard of pure evil in the heart of the Elemental Chaos before the world was finished, and the gods imprisoned him for this act of blasphemy. (This story is told in more detail in the “Demon” entry of the Monster Manual.) The Abyss is as entropic as the Elemental Chaos where it was planted, but it is actively malevolent, where the rest of the Elemental Chaos is simply untamed.