D&D General I have 6 questions about Paladins and 5 of them involve unusual ways in which 1 could lose his or her powers

[JMISBEST]

I have 6 questions about Paladins and 5 of them involve unusual ways in which 1 could lose his or her powers that with a few modifications could be used in any edition. Here they are

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

Question 2

If being convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit doesn't cost A Paladin his or her powers would demonstrating that he or she still has his or her powers get the conviction over turned?

Question 3

If A Paladins God or Goddess not only gives him or her A Quest but also tells him or her that if during this quest he or she needs to violate the paladins code then he or she can do so and won't lose his or her powers would this allow him or her to violate the paladins code without losing his or her powers or wouldn't it?, after all even gods and goddess make mistakes and if this happened then this could be 1 of those times?

Question 4

If A Paladin worships a very tolerant god or goddess that will allow a paladin to commit a fairly large variety of the ends justify the means acts without losing his or her powers would that include things such as saving 10 of thousands of lives by killing a few hundred people that have the plague?

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

Question 6

If a very young Paladin saves A Toddler and many years later that Toddler becomes 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos would The Paladin lose their powers even though they had no way of knowing that The Toddler they saved would grow up to become 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos?

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, you tagged this as "General", which alters the answers drastically since between editions, things for Paladins have changed a lot.

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

AD&D: Nothing. Paladins who didn't actually commit a crime are not punished by the powers they serve.
5E: Nothing unless the Paladin's Oath counts this (somehow) as a violation. No Oath I know of would do this, however.

Question 2

If being convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit doesn't cost A Paladin his or her powers would demonstrating that he or she still has his or her powers get the conviction over turned?

This depends a lot on the game world and the DM IMO. Are "Paladin Powers" well-known, for instance? Even if they are, would the "judge" over turn the conviction if a "jury" was responsible for the verdict? Would the "people" involved understand?

Question 3

If A Paladins God or Goddess not only gives him or her A Quest but also tells him or her that if during this quest he or she needs to violate the paladins code then he or she can do so and won't lose his or her powers would this allow him or her to violate the paladins code without losing his or her powers or wouldn't it?, after all even gods and goddess make mistakes and if this happened then this could be 1 of those times?

AD&D: If the "power" that the Paladin serves tells them to violate their Code, the Paladin would have to seriously judge whether the power wants it or if it is just a test.
5E: IMO this would cause serious doubt to the Paladin about his Oath and this "power" he serves. Knowingly breaking your Oath would be violation, but 5E only has information in the DMG on the Oathbreaker, which also includes the clause that the Paladin "pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power." IME Paladins who break their Oath aren't doing it to be evil or serve darkness. So, otherwise violating an Oath really only has whatever repercussions the DM wants to apply.

It also depends on how the "gods" are viewed. DO they make mistakes? Most gods (IMO) would not believe they make mistakes.

Question 4

If A Paladin worships a very tolerant god or goddess that will allow a paladin to commit a fairly large variety of the ends justify the means acts without losing his or her powers would that include things such as saving 10 of thousands of lives by killing a few hundred people that have the plague?

Really just a DM call on the particular god/goddess or Oath. Some believe "all life is sacred" (including the plague victims) and would think this is the "easy way out" since other solutions might be available.

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

AD&D: Sure, this could easily lead to the "dual-classing" if the Fighter meets the other requirements for dual-classing.
5E: It is a nice role-play thing, but technically the PC just needs to meet the multiclassing requirements.

Question 6

If a very young Paladin saves A Toddler and many years later that Toddler becomes 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos would The Paladin lose their powers even though they had no way of knowing that The Toddler they saved would grow up to become 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos?

No. The Paladin is not responsible for what other people do. They are only responsible for their own actions, however that includes failing to act if that violates their Oath, etc.

Anyway, I hope that helps some. I am sure others will chime in with their own views. Good luck!

 

[bedir than]

First, you tagged this as "General", which alters the answers drastically since between editions, things for Paladins have changed a lot.

AD&D: Nothing. Paladins who didn't actually commit a crime are not punished by the powers they serve.
5E: Nothing unless the Paladin's Oath counts this (somehow) as a violation. No Oath I know of would do this, however.


This depends a lot on the game world and the DM IMO. Are "Paladin Powers" well-known, for instance? Even if they are, would the "judge" over turn the conviction if a "jury" was responsible for the verdict? Would the "people" involved understand?


AD&D: If the "power" that the Paladin serves tells them to violate their Code, the Paladin would have to seriously judge whether the power wants it or if it is just a test.
5E: IMO this would cause serious doubt to the Paladin about his Oath and this "power" he serves. Knowingly breaking your Oath would be violation, but 5E only has information in the DMG on the Oathbreaker, which also includes the clause that the Paladin "pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power." IME Paladins who break their Oath aren't doing it to be evil or serve darkness. So, otherwise violating an Oath really only has whatever repercussions the DM wants to apply.

View attachment 267385

It also depends on how the "gods" are viewed. DO they make mistakes? Most gods (IMO) would not believe they make mistakes.


Really just a DM call on the particular god/goddess or Oath. Some believe "all life is sacred" (including the plague victims) and would think this is the "easy way out" since other solutions might be available.


AD&D: Sure, this could easily lead to the "dual-classing" if the Fighter meets the other requirements for dual-classing.
5E: It is a nice role-play thing, but technically the PC just needs to meet the multiclassing requirements.


No. The Paladin is not responsible for what other people do. They are only responsible for their own actions, however that includes failing to act if that violates their Oath, etc.

Anyway, I hope that helps some. I am sure others will chime in with their own views. Good luck!

Additionally in 5e a Paladin and the gods need no relationship at all.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Additionally in 5e a Paladin and the gods need no relationship at all.

True, which is why I always differentiated between gods/goddesses, "power" and Oath.

Still, it is a useful distinction to point out to the OP in case they were not aware of it.

 

[Ancalagon]

I have 6 questions about Paladins and 5 of them involve unusual ways in which 1 could lose his or her powers that with a few modifications could be used in any edition. Here they are

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

Says who? Source please. This sounds like an assumption more than a fact...

 

[Vaalingrade]

The piece of terrible design that depowered a Paladin for not being boring no longer exists and hasn't for two whole editions and over a decade.

 

[pemerton]

The OP seems a bit out there to me, but this one is interesting:

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

In fictional terms, the answer should be yes. Mechanically, though, most if not all versions of D&D struggle with this.

A system that handles it reasonably straightforwardly is Burning Wheel.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

Never heard of this happening, apart from truly bad DMing, but no, paladins answer to a higher power, so the fact that a jurisdiction (that may be extremely corrupt) finds them guilty of something has no bearing on their powers.

Question 2

If being convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit doesn't cost A Paladin his or her powers would demonstrating that he or she still has his or her powers get the conviction over turned?

Nope, your timing is way off on this question. If committing a crime would cost a paladin their powers, the effect would occur at the moment the crime was committed, not after they were convicted of the fact.

So, during their trial, the Paladin could argue that they retain their powers as evidence they didn’t commit the crime, but if they were nonetheless convicted, well, the fact they retained their powers isn’t new information.

Moreover, from the perspective of a judge or jury, “the paladin still has their powers” just isn’t compelling evidence:

• god’s laws and man’s laws are different, so maybe the god doesn’t care about the crime;
• maybe the god cares about the crime, but doesn’t consider it a fall-worthy offense;
• maybe the god cares about crime and considers it a fall-worthy offense, but has other reasons for not removing the paladin’s powers;
• maybe the god did remove the powers but the paladin atoned in between time ;

-maybe the god did remove the powers but the demonstration of “paladin powers” is a sham;

Question 3

If A Paladins God or Goddess not only gives him or her A Quest but also tells him or her that if during this quest he or she needs to violate the paladins code then he or she can do so and won't lose his or her powers would this allow him or her to violate the paladins code without losing his or her powers or wouldn't it?, after all even gods and goddess make mistakes and if this happened then this could be 1 of those times?

Nope. A god’s portfolio is a part of their essence. They don’t violate their essence willy-nilly and certainly don’t ask their servants to. The anthropomorphic representation of mercy is never going to be OK with killing a bunch of people without giving them a chance to repent, and the representation of nature is never going to be OK with strip mining.

Question 4

If A Paladin worships a very tolerant god or goddess that will allow a paladin to commit a fairly large variety of the ends justify the means acts without losing his or her powers would that include things such as saving 10 of thousands of lives by killing a few hundred people that have the plague?

Depends on the god and their portfolio.

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

You can’t become a paladin “by accident”. If the fighter actively sought a particular god’s grace or decided to consecrate their life to a particular Oath than they might become a paladin. But doing good acts is not enough.

Question 6

If a very young Paladin saves A Toddler and many years later that Toddler becomes 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos would The Paladin lose their powers even though they had no way of knowing that The Toddler they saved would grow up to become 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos?

Nope. Free will is a thing. The paladin saved a toddler. The toddler has free will to become a great hero or a great villain. The fact that they chose to become a great villain does not make the paladin responsible for his actions. The villain needs to take responsibility for what they have done.

 

[Bagpuss]

I have 6 questions about Paladins and 5 of them involve unusual ways in which 1 could lose his or her powers that with a few modifications could be used in any edition. Here they are

Well first of it varies a lot between editions how and when Paladins lose their powers, and in 5th Edition, they might never have to as it is

"If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master’s Guide."

So all the advice below is based on my interpretation as a DM, so your ideas might be different.

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers

No, committing crime is fine, so long as it doesn't break their oath.

but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

Did they break their oath? If they didn't then it doesn't matter to them or their powers, but it might to higher ups in the church.

I had a Paladin the would regularly visit brothels, both to administer cure disease, but also make use of their services, it didn't break his oath but it did regularly get him in heated discussions with higher ups in the church for bringing the church into disrepute.

Question 2

If being convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit doesn't cost A Paladin his or her powers would demonstrating that he or she still has his or her powers get the conviction over turned?

No, depends on the nature of the crime, and the nature of the oath and if the courts in that land recognise the validity of a Paladin oath.

Question 3

If A Paladins God or Goddess not only gives him or her A Quest but also tells him or her that if during this quest he or she needs to violate the paladins code then he or she can do so and won't lose his or her powers would this allow him or her to violate the paladins code without losing his or her powers or wouldn't it?, after all even gods and goddess make mistakes and if this happened then this could be 1 of those times?

Wow reading "he or she" and "him or her" all the time is a real pain, can't we just use "they/them" when the gender isn't determined?

I think a Paladin would question if the quest really came from their god if they required them to break their oath. Then they would have to way up if they were willing to break it or not. If they broke it I would think they would still need to atone as the oath is a personal matter.

Question 4

If A Paladin worships a very tolerant god or goddess that will allow a paladin to commit a fairly large variety of the ends justify the means acts without losing his or her powers would that include things such as saving 10 of thousands of lives by killing a few hundred people that have the plague?

Depends on the Oath they have taken. Plague isn't as good example as traditionally Paladins are very good at curing diseases, with Lay on Hands. But assuming they are presented with a trolley cart situation, then again they would have to look at what their oath says. It will frequently not say anything, and then they have to make a personal choice. Could be they need to atone or not no matter what choice they make.

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

If you want to allow that as a DM feel free (although there is nothing in the rules for it). It would be a good reason to allow a Fighter (or any other character) to respect as a Paladin. But really one act isn't enough, it is a life of following an oath.

Question 6

If a very young Paladin saves A Toddler and many years later that Toddler becomes 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos would The Paladin lose their powers even though they had no way of knowing that The Toddler they saved would grow up to become 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos?

No of course not.

 

[TwoSix]

The OP seems a bit out there to me, but this one is interesting:
In fictional terms, the answer should be yes. Mechanically, though, most if not all versions of D&D struggle with this.

A system that handles it reasonably straightforwardly is Burning Wheel.

3e probably came the closest with its various prestige classes, some of which were actually "opt-in paladins".

But yes, most D&D-derived class systems struggle with diegetic change to core character concepts, outside of creating a new character sheet that's tied to the new fiction.

 

[Weiley31]

I know that if you take a drink at a bar/drinking contest, a Paladin most certainly loses ALL of their powers (Fallen) and then needs an Atonement spell cast to restore it.

 

[Bagpuss]

I know that if you take a drink at a bar/drinking contest, a Paladin most certainly loses ALL of their powers (Fallen) and then needs an Atonement spell cast to restore it.

What? Had they taken an Oath not to consume alcohol or something? Sounds like the start of an RPG horror story.

 

[Weiley31]

What? Had they taken an Oath not to consume alcohol or something?

No: They just happen to be a Paladin PC created in the 2003 Temple of Elemental Evil pc game.

 

[TwoSix]

In terms of classic old-school paladin conceptions, I generally find oath violations easy to adjudicate, as long as the paladin is built in the classic "LG holy knight" conception.

Evil acts, anything where the paladin is putting their own well-being over the well-being of others, are relatively simply to recognize and penalize.

Chaotic acts tend to trip people up. To my mind, a chaotic act is an action where the paladin is putting her own conscience above the dictates of God/her god, and is worried more about the results of her actions then following her code. A paladin is NOT a consequentialist. A paladin believes her god and her code to be correct in all things, and has faith that following that code will eventually lead to the best outcome. A paladin does NOT accept a lesser evil to foil the greater. That is the way of chaos, which is why a paladin who follows the dictates of her heart rather than her god must atone.

 

[thirdkingdom]

3e probably came the closest with its various prestige classes, some of which were actually "opt-in paladins".

But yes, most D&D-derived class systems struggle with diegetic change to core character concepts, outside of creating a new character sheet that's tied to the new fiction.

BECMI does this, giving fighters the option of becoming a paladin (lawful), knight (neutral) or avenger (chaotic) in lieu of settling down and ruling a domain (Companion Player's Set, p. 17.).

 

[Bagpuss]

No: They just happen to be a Paladin PC created in the 2003 Temple of Elemental Evil pc game.

Ah Computer DM's are often the worst DM's.

 

[RuinousPowers]

1. Old School paladins lost their status by doing Chaotic or Evil acts. They would not be beholden to evil laws and could break them at will.

2. Old School paladin's powers can't be lost due to the outcome of a trial.

3. It is unlikely that a LG god would demand their paladins to break their oaths, as that wouldn't be lawful.

4. In Dragonlance definitely (or at least they wouldn't stop it); in other Old School interpretations of alignment, maybe. In modern definitions of LG, most likely not.

5. In Old School, dual classed as long as they meet the requirements.

6. As long as the Toddler wasn't evil already- if they were, the paladin should have destroyed it and would have lost their powers when they didn't. At least according to older alignment interpretations. Modern interpretations would say differently.

 

[Umbran]

Question 1

Its well known that if A Paladin commits a crime that even if he or she isn't convicted he or she still loses his or her powers but what happens if A Paladins is convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit?

Well, no. In 5e, it isn't a question of whether the paladin breaks the law. It is whether they violate their Oath.

For my games, it has always been such - the laws of mortals can be corrupt. The paladin must do the right thing (as defined by their Oath) whatever the law may say.

Question 2

If being convicted of a crime that he or she didn't commit doesn't cost A Paladin his or her powers would demonstrating that he or she still has his or her powers get the conviction over turned?

Conviction by a mortal court is not material to a paladin's standing. Courts can be corrupt, or incorrect, or just irrelevant to the paladin's moral standing.

Also, as above, the Oath is the operative thing - the paladin may be guilty of a crime, but not guilty of violating their oath. If, for example, in a war a paladin discovered that the war, battles, and leaders were unjust and wicked, so the paladin leaves the fight, the might be guilty of desertion in the legal sense, but entirely in good standing with their Oath.

Question 3

If A Paladins God or Goddess not only gives him or her A Quest but also tells him or her that if during this quest he or she needs to violate the paladins code then he or she can do so and won't lose his or her powers would this allow him or her to violate the paladins code without losing his or her powers or wouldn't it?, after all even gods and goddess make mistakes and if this happened then this could be 1 of those times?

First, the gods almost never speak directly to mortals in my worlds. Paladins and other people with divine powers exist because the gods cannot or will not intervene directly like that.

Second, especially in 5e, paladins don't actually have to be tied to a god. It is their devotion to their Oath that allows them access to the power. The paladin violating the Oath will lose powers, whatever the god may say or want.

Question 4

If A Paladin worships a very tolerant god or goddess that will allow a paladin to commit a fairly large variety of the ends justify the means acts without losing his or her powers would that include things such as saving 10 of thousands of lives by killing a few hundred people that have the plague?

See above that the deity isn't actually the relevant thing.

Most paladin Oaths won't allow such as the above.. I can imagine an Oath constructed to allow such, but it will have just a strong strictures in some other way.

Question 5

Since Paladins that commit certain acts lose the powers of a Paladin but in some situations f they accomplish a sufficient act of redemption they can regain the abilities of a Paladin does this mean that if a sufficiently devout Fight commits enough notable deeds that he or she can earn elevation to the status of A Paladin?

Good deeds alone do not make the paladin. It is, again devotion to the Oath that makes the paladin.

Question 6

If a very young Paladin saves A Toddler and many years later that Toddler becomes 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos would The Paladin lose their powers even though they had no way of knowing that The Toddler they saved would grow up to become 1 of the worlds most powerful servants of Chaos?

A paladin is not responsible for the choices of others made well after their interaction.

 

[jmartkdr2]

3e probably came the closest with its various prestige classes, some of which were actually "opt-in paladins".

But yes, most D&D-derived class systems struggle with diegetic change to core character concepts, outside of creating a new character sheet that's tied to the new fiction.

Actually I think the type of mutliclassing used in 5e is pretty good at this: the character would simply start gaining levels in paladin instead of fighter; they would keep all their prior fighter skills after all.

 

[Beleriphon]

I know that if you take a drink at a bar/drinking contest, a Paladin most certainly loses ALL of their powers (Fallen) and then needs an Atonement spell cast to restore it.

Only because the drinking game adds a crap ton of Chaos point to that hidden score.