I miss CG

[Shroomy]

I'm going to take Ari's advice and wait for more information on how 4e handles alignment, but my personal preference would have been to jettison the lawful-chaotic axis all together.

 

[Lanefan]

Christ I hate CN especially. Talk about a license to act like an lunatic.

Whether CN exists as a known alignment or not, my characters are still gonna act like lunatics when the mood suits them/me. In fact, it's even better now, as I can have otherwise-"lawful" characters act like lunatics on occasion without having to worry about violating alignment tenets.

Lookout, worlds!

Lanefan

 

[RigaMortus2]

Before, there wasn't much point in defining Chaotic Good vs. Neutral Good, because unless you make them really prescriptive they end up referring to the same thing: doing what you think is right rather than what society thinks is right.

The main difference I see between these two alignments is that Neutral Good is basically as you describe doing what you think is right rather than what society thinks is right. where as Chaotic Good is actively going against the laws/rules. They are just looking for an excuse to break the rules. A CG person is almost looking for a reason to go against society where as NG is not.

As well, Lawful Evil never really made sense, because evil in and of itself can't have rules; a society could not be built upon hurting one another, because no one would agree to being hurt. And if you have misguided ideals of evil, and think that they are laws, that is actually a chaotic way of thinking (being irrational).

Society is not the only defintion of law/chaos. There are personal codes as well one holds themselves up to. An Assassin who kills for money (or pleasure) but has a personal code that he will never kill children or women. Then there is Dexter... A serial killer who works as a Crime Scene Investigator and quenches is thrist for blood by killing just the bad people/criminals, not the innocent people.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Chaos is disorder.

Nothing is disorderly about having your political enemies executed due to a loophole.

Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. If you are bending the laws to suit your needs, rather than how they were set up as originally intended, that is chaotic IMO.

 

[Derren]

As well, Lawful Evil never really made sense, because evil in and of itself can't have rules; a society could not be built upon hurting one another, because no one would agree to being hurt. And if you have misguided ideals of evil, and think that they are laws, that is actually a chaotic way of thinking (being irrational).

May I invoke Godwins Law and point you towards Nazi Germany?
You have a genocide (evil) in a very organized manner (lawful).

And for something not Nazi related, what about the law in china which forces woman to be sterilized?

 

[Bishmon]

Understanding that a law is Bad and following it doesn't make you somehow lawful at heart, but just plain old Evil. This is because laws can't be meant to support Evil, because laws are generally agreed upon.

And people can't agree upon doing evil things? Do you know about the whole slavery thing in American history?

If you *can't* understand that a law is Bad, and follow it because you think laws are good for their own sake, then you are inherently irrational, and thus Chaotic at heart--anyone can give you any rule and you'll follow it.

I think that's a wild misinterpretation, and I'm thinking if we're that far apart, us discussing this is going to do absolutely no good.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The one thing I liked about RIFTS is the alignment system. Not only does it make a little more sense, they give you specific actions a character of each alignment would or would not due, just as a guideline. There are 7 total alignments, 2 for Good, 2 for Selfish and 3 for Evil. Here is how the RIFTS alignments work...

There is no such thing as an absolute neutral alignment. A character with an absolute, true neutral position could not make a decision, fight tyranny, hurt others, go adventuring, or take any action of any kind without leaning toward good, evil or self-gratification. It is humanly impossible, and therefore is eliminated in the context of this game.

The "good" alignments are Principled and Scrupulous. The "selfish" alignments are Unprincipled and Anarchist. The "evil" alignments are Aberrant, Miscreant, and Diabolic.

Good Alignments
Good aligned characters (Principled and Scrupulous) are the straight-up heroes of the world. They generally place a high value on life and liberty, as well as law and order. Just because a character is of a good alignment, however, does not mean he's a saint or without bad habits. Good characters can be irritating, obnoxious and arrogant, even prejudiced and full of annoying quirks. Likewise, they may find themselves stepping outside the boundaries of the law in their quest to combat evil and injustice, but when push comes to shove, the characters can always be trusted to do the right thing, especially in a life and death situation.

Principled (Good)
Principled characters are upright "boyu scouts" or "do gooder" types who put others before themselves. This is the knight in shinning armor, with the highest regard for the lives and well-being of others, freedom, truth, honor, and justice. Principled characters will always attempt to with within the law, and have a high regard for (and trust of) authority, as well as for life and freedom. They are usually compassionate, merciful, cooperative and sincere.

A Principled character will...

• Avoid lies
• Never kill or attack an unarmed foe
• Never harm an innocent
• Never torture for any reason
• Never kill for pleasure
• Always help others
• Always work within the law whenever possible.
• Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means no breaking and entering, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc.
• Respect authority, law, self-discipline, and honor.
• Work well with a group.
• Never take "dirty" money, or ill-gotten valuables or goods. This means any property that belongs to criminals or villains. It matters not how the bad guys got that property themselves: the hero will not touch it even if destitute.
• Never betray a friend.

Scrupulous (Good)
Scrupulous characters value life and freedom above all else and despise those who would deprive others of them. This type of hero is typically portrayed in many movies as the cop who plays by his own rules, forced to work beyond the law for justice (or retribution) and the greater good of the people. They are not vicious or vindictive characters, but are individuals driven by their sense of justice to right a wrong or take a (bloody) stand. This characters will always attempt to work within the law whenever possible.

A Scrupulous character will...

• Keep his word to any other good person
• Lie only to people of selfish or evil alignments
• Never attack or kill an unarmed foe
• Never harm an innocent
• Never torture for pleasure, but may use muscle to extract information from criminals or evil characters
• Never kill for pleasure, will always attempt to bring the villain to justice alive, no matter how vile he may find him.
• Always try to help others
• Attempt to work within the law whenever possible.
• Bend and, occassionally, break the law when deemed necessary. This means he may use strong-arm techniques, harass, break and enter, steal and so forth (but only against bad guys).
• Work with groups, but dislike confining laws and bureaucracy (red tape).
• Never take "dirty" money or items.
• Never betray a friend.

Selfish Alignments
Selfish characters (Unprincipled and Anarchist) are not necessarily evil, but they always have their own best interests at heart and their opinions in mind above all others. These are the mercenaries, rogues, vigilantes and anti-heroes of the world.

Unprincipled (Selfish)
This basically good person tends to be selfish, greedy, and holds his personal freedom and welfare above almost everything else. He dislikes confining laws and self-discipline and distrusts authority. He views the government as well-intentioned, but clumsy and ineffective. Keeping his best interests in mind, the character will always look out for himself.
This character is also likely to take "dirty" money and items, with the concept that it will help him in his crusade against evil. He may also destroy the property of known criminals. He will not deal in illegal wares, drugs, or take money from innocent or good people. The Unprincipled character may associate with both good and evil characters, and often has paid informants, spies and stoolies.
This is the noble scoundrel, the guy who is always looking for the best deal, associates with good and evil characters, is continually tempted to lie and cheat, and hates himself for being loyal, helping others and ultimately doing the "right thing".

An Unprincipled character will...

• Keep his word of honor
• Lie and cheat if necessary (especially to those of Anarchisy and evil alignments).
• Not kill an unarmed foe (but will take advantage of one).
• Never harm an innocent
• Never use torture unless absolutely necessary.
• Never kill for pleasure; will attempt to bring the villain to justice alive and ruin him rather than simply kill him.
• Usually help those in need.
• Rarely attempt to work within the law.
• Blatantly break the law to achieve his (usually good-intentioned) goals.
• Dislike and distrust authority, the law and bureaucracy. Feels they have been corrupted and abused.
• Work with groups, especially if it serves his needs, is profitable, and/or he is in the limelight.
• Take "dirty" money.
• Never betray a friend.
• Have a high regard for life and freedom.

Anarchist (Selfish)
This type of character likes to indulge himself in everything. He is the insurgent, con-artist, gambler and uncommited freebooter who adventures because he enjoys the thrill, fame and forture it brings, rather than for any cause (like defending humanity). This character will at least consider doing anything if the price is right or the challenge is alluring enough.
Laws and rules infringe on personal freedom and were meant to be broken. He will not hesitate at using strong-arm techniques, breaking and entering, theft, harassment, destruction of private property, and so on. This can also include acting as judge, jury and executioner. These characters are usually the daring anti-heroes who feel the end justifies the means. The Anarchist-aligned person is always looking for the best deal and self-gratification. He will work with good, selfish and evil characters to attain his goals. This Anarchist is continually teetering between good and evil, rebelling against and bending the law to fit his needs. Mercenaries and theives fall into this category.

An Anarchist character will...

• Keep his word, but only if it suits or pleases him.
• Lie and cheat if he feels necessary.
• Not be likely to kill an unarmed foe, but certainly will knock out, attack or beat up one.
• Never kill an innocent, although his rash or self-serving actions may injure or kill bystanders by accident.
• Use torture to extract information, but is likely to not do so for pleasure.
• Seldom kill for pleasure.
• Not be likely to help someone without some ulterior motive (even if it's only to show off).
• Rarely work within the law unless it serves his purpose.
• Constantly break the law to achieve his goals.
• Have little respect for authority, the law, or self-discipline.
• Not work well within groups: tends to do as he pleases, despite orders to the contrary.
• Take "dirty" money without hesitation.
• Possibly betray a friend. Sorry, pal.

Evil Alignment
All evil characters (Aberrant, Miscreant, and Diabolic) are not necessarily bent on universal genocide or dominating all other living creatures. Nor are all evil characters sadistic, cruel, ugly, or untrustworthy. Many evil characters may actually seem kind or likeable.
Evil alignments are a step beyond the self-gratificaiton of the selfish alignments. Evil characters are ruthless individuals who are willing to say or do anything to achieve their goals. Most commonly, evil characters have goals that either entail making people suffer or cause suffering as a side effect (a side effect that the evil character knowingly and callously disregards). Human life has little meaning to them, and friends tend to be (but not always) people to use and discard when they are no longer of value. Evil-aligned characters do not automatically slay any good-aligned person because of different ethics or philosophy. All the better to use good to achieve their own goals, for the end always justifies the means.

Aberrant (Evil)
The cliche that there is "no honor among thieves" is false when dealing with an Aberrant character. This is an individual who is driven to attain his goals through force, power and intimidation. Yet the Aberrant character stands apart from the norm with his own personal (and twisted) code of ethics. He expects loyalty from his minions, punishing disloyalty and treachery with a swift, merciful death or banishment. An Aberrant character will always keep his word of honor and uphold any bargins. He will define his terms and live by them, whether anyone else likes them or not.
If an anti-hero, he will completely disregard law and deal out justice as he deems fit. He will never be cruel or vindictive, and will always be absolutely positive that the person is guily before he deals out his brand of justice. However, once he condemns a character, he will see to it that it is destroyed.
Whether a villain or a corrupt or extreme anti-hero, the Aberrant character looks upon people without honor or a sense of loyalty as worthless and disgusting lowlifes.
Do not think the Aberrant character as a misguided goodguy. He or she will break all laws with impunity, harass victims, destroy propery, assault, blackmail, torture and murder. Only their methods and degree of violence may vary.

An Aberrant character will...

• Always Keep his word of honor (at least to those he deems worthy of it).
• Lie and cheat to those not worthy of his respect; selfish, evil or good.
• May or maynot kill an unarmed foe.
• Never kill an innocent, particulary a child, but may harm, harass or kidnap.
• Never torture for pleasure, but will use it to extract information and intimidate others.
• Never kill for pleasure, but will always have a reason.
• May or may not help someone in need.
• Rarely attempt to work within the law.
• Break the law without hesitation.
• Have no use for law or bureaucracy, but respects honor, self-discipline and the "concept" of laws and order.
• Work with others to attain his goal.
• Usually take "dirty" money, although his twisted code of ethics may prevent him from doing so in some instances.
• Never betray a friend. Never.

Miscreant (Evil)
This self-serving, unscrupulous character is out only for himself. Power, glory, wealth, position and anything that will make his life more comfortable or pleasureable is his goal. It doesn't matter who gets caught in the middle, as long as he comes out smiling like a rose. The character will lie, cheat, hurt, and kill anyone to attain his personal goals.
If a Miscreant character becomes a vigilante, mercenary or bounty hunter, it will be for some personal reason, a vendetta, money, glory, or a love for danger and challenge. This character is a savage misanthrope out for himself.

A Miscreant character will...

• Not necessarily keep his word to anyone.
• Lie and cheat indiscriminately (good, evil, selfish).
• Kill an unarmed foe as readily as he would a potential threat or competition.
• Use or harm an innocent.
• Use torture for extracting information and pleasure.
• May kill for sheer pleasure.
• Feel no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward for him.
• Have no deference to the law, but will work within the law if he must.
• Blatantly break the law for his own goals and pleasure.
• Dislike and distrust authory and the law.
• Work with others if it will help him to to attain his personal goals.
• Take "dirty" money, stolen goods, and illegal items (as well as steal valuables for himself whenever the opportunity arises).
• Betray a friend if it serves his needs.
• Have no respect or concern for the lives or welfare of others.

Diabolic (Evil)
This is the category that most megalomanics, psychopaths, and violent and despicable characters fall into. This is the cruel, brutal killer who trusts no one and has no value for any life other than his own. A Diabolic character will crush anyone who gets in his way. The lowlife will lie, cheat, con, abuse, and kill anyone less powerful than he is. Aberrant characters find these dishonorable people more revolting than a good-aligned character.

A Diabolic character will...

• Rarely keep his word, and has no honor.
• Lie and cheat to anyone.
• Most certainly attack and ill an unarmed foe.
• Hurt and kill an innocent without a second thought and for pleasure.
• Use torture for pleasure and information, regularly.
• Kill for sheer pleasure.
• Be likely to help someone only on a whim (or to set them up for some evil deed later).
• Rarely attempt to work within the law.
• Blatantly break the law and mock authority.
• Despise honor, authority, and self-discipline. Views them as weaknesses.
• Not work well within a group; constantly disregarding orders and vying for power/command.
• Always take "dirty" money, drugs, stolen goods, etc. as well as steal from others.
• Betray a friend without hesitation: after all, you can always find new friends.
• Associate mostly with other evil alignments.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Just one more voice who thinks that LE and CG have a place in the world. I'm glad that 4E has de-emphasized Alignments and replaced "True Neutral" with Unaligned, but they've gone further than trimmed the fat here. They cut out some good meat.

Ah well, hardly difficult to put back in, eh?

 

[ZetaStriker]

If in 4E, a character behaves the way you'd describe a CG character in 3.5 but has something else written on his character sheet, is that bad? I don't really get why some people think because alignments have been simplified(primarily because they weren't important), it means that you can't play that kind of character any more. I think everyone knows that there are far too many 'alignments', certainly more than 9, to record in any thorough fashion. So why not simplify it and let the character's actions and personality define who they are? And how does having CG written down change any of that?

 

[Celebrim]

...as far as Chaotic Good goes, it's basically unaligned with good leanings, or basically good with some mental problems.

The biggest problem with the alignment system is that very few people seem to understand it.

Chaotic Good is most certainly neither unaligned with good leanings, nor basically good with some mental problems.

Chaotic Good is essentially Liberalism in the classical rich capital 'L' John Locke, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson (I'd go further in the list, but it would become political with more modern figures) sense of the word before the term lost any real meaning because too many philosophies coopted it. Chaotic Good is the belief that true goodness is only expressable through the excercise of invidual liberty, and that the most weal and benefit is obtained when basically good people are left unfettered by social constraints or burdensome laws. There is nothing basically mentally unbalanced about it at all. There is nothing basically ungood about it at all, and a very strong case could be made (and CG people would make it) that CG is Good, and that other alignments are less good.

Of course, people who believe in LE philosophies largely believe that what they believe is Good and right and just as well.

The alignment descriptors aren't meant to solve that debate. They are simply meant as a simplified way to describe the various philosophical camps and futher - in a very fantasy and fantastical way - to make those philosophical camps and ideals tangible things.

The alignment system isn't one of D&D's flaws. It's one of the reasons I play D&D. Because without it, the game would tend to just be killing things and taking there stuff. I play D&D because I like situations like the PC's going into the orc lair to kill things and take thier stuff...

...and rescueing a very pregnant human slave
...who soon needs a midwife
...who delivers a wailing half-orc child
...which prompts the mother to ask the PC's to kill it

None of which requires the alignment system, but having the alignment system helps keep these questions tangible in a way that having no mechanics for alignment actions - no way to keep score - isn't.