D&D (2024) I think we are on the cusp of a sea change.

[cowpie]

Yes, I hear you - which is why I'm suggested that they should (and hopefully will) keep the core game still "traditional D&D," which is part of what made 5E so successful. They shouldn't forget that.

In the old Champions 4th Edition, Aaron Allston included a campaign planning sheet for use in his version of a Session Zero. It outlined how to construct a campaign from scratch by ticking boxes, since Champions was fully a construction kit that required the GM to make a custom setting every time. These could be used as building blocks to emulate any subgenre of fiction.

Rated 1-5 they were:
Morality (1 = black and white... to 5 = morality is always in shades of grey)
Realism (1 = Very Romantic... to 5 = Extremely Realistic)
Outlook (1 = Very Optimistic, almost everything works out... to 5 = Very Pessimistic, almost nothing works out)
Seriousness/Tone (1 = Very Lighthearted - almost everything played for laughs... to 5 = Almost entirely serious)
Continuity (1 = Entirely Episodic...to 5 = Entirely Serial, everything must fit the story line)

A traditional four color comic campaign was modeled top to bottom: M2, R2, O2, S3, C4
A gritty street-level superhero campaign was: M4, R4, O4, S4, C5

It occurs to me that WOTC is favoring a play style of M1-2, R1-2, O1-2, S1-2, C variable, but mostly 1-2. So, clear cut morality, focus away from realism/simulation, optimistic worldview, friendly/lighthearted/safe seriousness, & short term episodic play.

While there's nothing wrong with this, I wish they'd support different approaches to play. As we've mentioned earlier, people's tastes change, as do demographics. By supporting different ways to play, they could more easily adapt to changes in player preference in the market place, and capture all of the players, instead of just some of the players.

 

[JEB]

They are releasing a number of "classic" campaign settings in the next few years. That doesn't suggest sea change to me.

Considering that Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft was very different from the "classic" version of the setting, I think it's safe to assume that the other upcoming "classic" settings will be similarly reimagined.

I don't think 5E launched that way. As I stated earlier, it launched as a corrective action focused on recapturing GenX players.

That was definitely a large part of 5E's launch, but they also echoed ideas from a number of modern story-based RPGs as well, with new core mechanics like backgrounds and inspiration. IIRC, versions of that were even in the Next playtests.

What's interesting is that even if it was aimed mainly at Gen X, 5E was very successful with younger folks even in its original state, well before the design shifts of 2020 and 2021.

 

[Professor Murder]

 

[cowpie]

So I do have one more observation about WOTC's embracing a particular play style to fit the current year zeitgeist. While I have no problem with playing D&D as a light-hearted, casual story, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that it's a good idea to go all-in favoring this over older play styles. At least they shouldn't abandon older play styles.

The older versions of D&D embraced mythical heroic fantasy as a basis for game play. All cultures on earth use mythological stories, loosely described in Campbell's 'Hero with a Thousand Faces', as 'The Hero's Journey'.
A young, inexperienced hero, who has an underdeveloped talent, is in a society faced with a problem. The hero reluctantly embarks on a quest to seek a guide and find a solution to the problem. They enter a supernatural world where normal rules don't apply, and face various trials and tribulations. They grow as a person, and discover how to use their talent. Eventually they find a treasure, which can solve the problem. They bring the treasure back to society, and save the day.

The reason this exists in every society on earth, is that it taps deeply into the human psyche, and the fragility of the human condition.
Humans are mortal creatures, who for most of our history, had a life expectancy of 25. The world was (and is) dangerous, with disease, starvation, predators, and bad luck all acting in concert to kill us off from the moment of birth.

Human societies developed as a technology to let humans work together to protect each other, and find solutions to these problems. This preserves the society, which protects us from extinction.

One reason Hero's Journey stories are repeated over the centuries because they model the path we need to take when our way of doing things isn't working. We embark on a quest, suffer trials, find the solution, and keep our society going. Over the centuries this has enabled our advanced technological society, freedom from severe want, and a life expectancy into the 70s. If we abandon this knowledge, we risk damaging our societies, and losing our hard won gains. Ultimately, our species could end up getting killed off.

The other reason these stories resonate, is that the Hero's Journey is a model for dealing with the personal challenges that all human beings face in life. You start out not knowing much. Bad things can happen to you which you can't ignore or you'll suffer. You face your fears, develop your talents, and grow as a person. The next time you face challenges, you're better at doing it, and you survive.

Traditional D&D is modeled after the Hero's Journey. PCs start out as 1st level neophytes, embark on a quest, cross the threshold of adventure into a supernatural underworld, find the treasure (or other boon), bring it back home, and win the day. They level up, grow as a character and survive. Even the most basic dungeon crawl is based on this universal, mythic model. I'd argue that this is a major reason why D&D has remained popular. D&D journey = Hero's Journey = Mythical model of life's actual journey.

This is why WOTC devaluing this is concerning. It's abandoning a focus on games that tap into stories resonating with the human experience, which have remained universally popular throughout most of recorded history.

 

[BookTenTiger]

So I do have one more observation about WOTC's embracing a particular play style to fit the current year zeitgeist. While I have no problem with playing D&D as a light-hearted, casual story, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that it's a good idea to go all-in favoring this over older play styles. At least they shouldn't abandon older play styles.

The older versions of D&D embraced mythical heroic fantasy as a basis for game play. All cultures on earth use mythological stories, loosely described in Campbell's 'Hero with a Thousand Faces', as 'The Hero's Journey'.
A young, inexperienced hero, who has an underdeveloped talent, is in a society faced with a problem. The hero reluctantly embarks on a quest to seek a guide and find a solution to the problem. They enter a supernatural world where normal rules don't apply, and face various trials and tribulations. They grow as a person, and discover how to use their talent. Eventually they find a treasure, which can solve the problem. They bring the treasure back to society, and save the day.

The reason this exists in every society on earth, is that it taps deeply into the human psyche, and the fragility of the human condition.
Humans are mortal creatures, who for most of our history, had a life expectancy of 25. The world was (and is) dangerous, with disease, starvation, predators, and bad luck all acting in concert to kill us off from the moment of birth.

Human societies developed as a technology to let humans work together to protect each other, and find solutions to these problems. This preserves the society, which protects us from extinction.

One reason Hero's Journey stories are repeated over the centuries because they model the path we need to take when our way of doing things isn't working. We embark on a quest, suffer trials, find the solution, and keep our society going. Over the centuries this has enabled our advanced technological society, freedom from severe want, and a life expectancy into the 70s. If we abandon this knowledge, we risk damaging our societies, and losing our hard won gains. Ultimately, our species could end up getting killed off.

The other reason these stories resonate, is that the Hero's Journey is a model for dealing with the personal challenges that all human beings face in life. You start out not knowing much. Bad things can happen to you which you can't ignore or you'll suffer. You face your fears, develop your talents, and grow as a person. The next time you face challenges, you're better at doing it, and you survive.

Traditional D&D is modeled after the Hero's Journey. PCs start out as 1st level neophytes, embark on a quest, cross the threshold of adventure into a supernatural underworld, find the treasure (or other boon), bring it back home, and win the day. They level up, grow as a character and survive. Even the most basic dungeon crawl is based on this universal, mythic model. I'd argue that this is a major reason why D&D has remained popular. D&D journey = Hero's Journey = Mythical model of life's actual journey.

This is why WOTC devaluing this is concerning. It's abandoning a focus on games that tap into stories resonating with the human experience, which have remained universally popular throughout most of recorded history.

How is WotC devaluing the Hero's Journey? If anything, 5e really supports it, with most classes not get their subclasses until 3rd Level. In my experience, characters are defined equally by their background as their classes at 1st Level, then work up to subclasses, get a power boost at 5th level and another one at 10th.

WotC's last two adventures start characters at 1st Level.

I don't understand how what WotC has been doing with 5e supports this critique.

 

[ECMO3]

I'll be frank, my biggest problems with D&D over the years has been with how boring I think player races are. For the most part, it doesn't seem to matter whether that Wizard is an elf, gnome, or a human because it really isn't going to have as significant impact on the game. And now they're working harder to make player races even more irrelevant.

If you play a Goblin this will not be the case.

Frankly I think with most races you can come up with ways to make them very impactful considering the spells and unique racial abilities. This is even more true if you play without multiclassing and feats.

 

[cbwjm]

 

[cowpie]

How is WotC devaluing the Hero's Journey? If anything, 5e really supports it, with most classes not get their subclasses until 3rd Level. In my experience, characters are defined equally by their background as their classes at 1st Level, then work up to subclasses, get a power boost at 5th level and another one at 10th.

WotC's last two adventures start characters at 1st Level.

I don't understand how what WotC has been doing with 5e supports this critique.

Correction -- I meant to say that they are contemplating doing this, which could result in this happening.

To sum up a number of earlier responses to the OP's "cusp of a sea change" post, it was proposed that there's a newer generation with newer values that WOTC is marketing to. The gameplay will stay the same in 5.5 and 6.0, but the old "nostalgia-driven" Gen-X values of 5.0 will be superseded with newer values of the new generation. They are the core demographic now, so WOTC is going to cater to what they like, and that's casual light hearted play.

You can still mechanically do D&D stuff, but it's the content that will change.

Dungeon crawling and heroic adventure are still options, but because of the new content changes I'm concerned this will limit player options to casual play only. The new material will remove some content seen as a problem, and focus more on characters that are friendly avatars representing the players, and not older fantasy tropes simulating older mythology or fantasy literature. No more evil orcs evil Drow, grimdark Conan or picaresque Fafhrd and Grey Mouser content. Also this negates a lot of themes players might want to reproduce from ancient mythology.

Case in point WOTC's recent errata release for all of their books, which feature lists of line-item removal of material, including removing alignment from the game entirely, to remove all references to good and evil, even as abstract concepts. Since mythology incorporates concepts of good and evil, this potentially chips away and the narrative power of the mythical archetypes I'm talking about. I think that those mythical archetypes are what draw people to the game, not nostalgia, so I'm leery about drastically changing the content.

In other words, you can still have the trappings of a hero's journey: quests, dungeon crawls, leveling up and power ups, etc, But, if the content is edited so there's no evil to fight against, then this could devalue the importance going on the quest in the first place. If Emperor Palpatine or Sauron are no longer evil, then why bother fighting them? If the Heroes aren't objectively good, are they still heroes? No good knights of King Arthur facing the evil knighs of Mordred, per the new values, Which is fine, if that's what you want, but if you want objectively evil or good mythical characters, I guess pick up a copy of Pendragon?

 

[Scribe]

Case in point WOTC's recent errata release for all of their books, which feature lists of line-item removal of material, including removing alignment from the game entirely, to remove all references to good and evil, even as abstract concepts.

I don't believe this happened?

 

[Malmuria]

So I do have one more observation about WOTC's embracing a particular play style to fit the current year zeitgeist. While I have no problem with playing D&D as a light-hearted, casual story, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that it's a good idea to go all-in favoring this over older play styles. At least they shouldn't abandon older play styles.

The older versions of D&D embraced mythical heroic fantasy as a basis for game play. All cultures on earth use mythological stories, loosely described in Campbell's 'Hero with a Thousand Faces', as 'The Hero's Journey'.
A young, inexperienced hero, who has an underdeveloped talent, is in a society faced with a problem. The hero reluctantly embarks on a quest to seek a guide and find a solution to the problem. They enter a supernatural world where normal rules don't apply, and face various trials and tribulations. They grow as a person, and discover how to use their talent. Eventually they find a treasure, which can solve the problem. They bring the treasure back to society, and save the day.

The reason this exists in every society on earth, is that it taps deeply into the human psyche, and the fragility of the human condition.
Humans are mortal creatures, who for most of our history, had a life expectancy of 25. The world was (and is) dangerous, with disease, starvation, predators, and bad luck all acting in concert to kill us off from the moment of birth.

Human societies developed as a technology to let humans work together to protect each other, and find solutions to these problems. This preserves the society, which protects us from extinction.

One reason Hero's Journey stories are repeated over the centuries because they model the path we need to take when our way of doing things isn't working. We embark on a quest, suffer trials, find the solution, and keep our society going. Over the centuries this has enabled our advanced technological society, freedom from severe want, and a life expectancy into the 70s. If we abandon this knowledge, we risk damaging our societies, and losing our hard won gains. Ultimately, our species could end up getting killed off.

The other reason these stories resonate, is that the Hero's Journey is a model for dealing with the personal challenges that all human beings face in life. You start out not knowing much. Bad things can happen to you which you can't ignore or you'll suffer. You face your fears, develop your talents, and grow as a person. The next time you face challenges, you're better at doing it, and you survive.

Traditional D&D is modeled after the Hero's Journey. PCs start out as 1st level neophytes, embark on a quest, cross the threshold of adventure into a supernatural underworld, find the treasure (or other boon), bring it back home, and win the day. They level up, grow as a character and survive. Even the most basic dungeon crawl is based on this universal, mythic model. I'd argue that this is a major reason why D&D has remained popular. D&D journey = Hero's Journey = Mythical model of life's actual journey.

This is why WOTC devaluing this is concerning. It's abandoning a focus on games that tap into stories resonating with the human experience, which have remained universally popular throughout most of recorded history.

Early dnd was more influenced by sword and sorcery and pulp than by high fantasy. Adventurers were not chosen one heroes but people who risked their lives (and often died) to discover/steal a bit of treasure. Heroic fantasy was an influence, but not the only one or the primary one until dragon lance. And they just released a whole book on dragons, which is classic high fantasy.

I can’t help but feel that you are really reaching here. To the extent that dnd games were ever really about “themes of universal human experience” or whatever, they still will be going forward. There isn’t some monolithic tradition, either in the hobby or in…the entirety of human history…that is being replaced as the result of an errata