D&D 5E Idea a Redemption Mod for Infernal Warmachines in BG: DiA

[Bolares]

Ah, OK, then in terms of value for money, DH is really poor, right ? Because for the same size/price of the book, you get much more usable things with BG-DiA, including a much grander adventure.

Not really. DH is REALLY replayable, and it's a great setting book for city adventures and specifically Waterdeep. Also, the villian lairs are greeat, and can be repurposed at lot. I guess if you are going to run the adventure only once, and never use the material in it for other games yes, it doesn't feel worth it. But I think the financial value of it is more in the sum of it's parts than in what I will use running the adventure as written once.

Edit; It's reaplayable with different groups. For the same groups there is to much that will happen exactly the same way for it to work.

 

[Lyxen]

Not really. DH is REALLY replayable

No, and it's dishonest to claim it. Most of the intrigue is locked, it's just the resolution path that varies, even the plans of the locations are re-used ! Will anyone claim that they have run it twice with the same group, or that it can actually be played more than once as a player ?

and it's a great setting book for city adventures and specifically Waterdeep.

For city adventures in general, certainly not. As for Waterdeep, I'm pretty sure that there are other sources which are much better.

Also, the villian lairs are greeat, and can be repurposed at lot. I guess if you are going to run the adventure only once, and never use the material in it for other games yes, it doesn't feel worth it. But I think the financial value of it is more in the sum of it's parts than in what I will use running the adventure as written once.

Edit; It's reaplayable with different groups. For the same groups there is to much that will happen exactly the same way for it to work.

Every adventure is replayable with a different group, because the group will make the same scenario play differently. It does not excuse wasting 75% of the content on any single one of them.

 

[Bolares]

No, and it's dishonest to claim it. Most of the intrigue is locked, it's just the resolution path that varies, even the plans of the locations are re-used ! Will anyone claim that they have run it twice with the same group, or that it can actually be played more than once as a player ?

I don't get why you have to be so agressive. We are just two people talking about a hobby we love, no need to call my argument dishonest (even more so if you see my edit, where I've said that for the same group the adventure is not really replayable...

For city adventures in general, certainly not. As for Waterdeep, I'm pretty sure that there are other sources which are much better.

Well, we will have to disagree then. I think the book talks pretty well about how to run a city game, mentioning law enforcment, giving example laws and stuff like that. As for other sources, I'm a 5e players, I'm not going to buy older books that don't represent the reality of the city and have useless crunch, and the gazeteer gave me everything I thought I needed for playing in the city.

It's okay for you to dislike something, it's okay for us to disagree, I'd just ask you to stop being so adversarial about it...

 

[Lyxen]

I don't get why you have to be so agressive. We are just two people talking about a hobby we love, no need to call my argument dishonest (even more so if you see my edit, where I've said that for the same group the adventure is not really replayable...

My apologies, it's just that I really hate that module, It was by far the worst campaign that we ran under 5e, out of more than 10 now.

And I was not mentioning you for dishonesty, my comment was for WotC, whom I usually support, but a D&D campaign is not a "choose your own path" book, or a simple boardgame that you can replay in a few scores of minutes or even hours.

And Dragonheist just feels like a succession of vignettes where what the PCs do do not matter at all.

Well, we will have to disagree then. I think the book talks pretty well about how to run a city game, mentioning law enforcment, giving example laws and stuff like that.

This is why I was mentioning that it's not a generic city book you have fairly different materials about Baldur's Gate, as the ambiance of the city is really different, for example.

As for other sources, I'm a 5e players, I'm not going to buy older books that don't represent the reality of the city and have useless crunch, and the gazeteer gave me everything I thought I needed for playing in the city.

Note it's the same level of information in the Baldur's Gate gazetter of DiA, and I honestly find the City part of DiA much less railroading. Even the part of getting to the inner city is extremely open, as is the intrigue with the Vanthampur (which can be buffed really easily with other noble houses, for example).

It's okay for you to dislike something, it's okay for us to disagree, I'd just ask you to stop being so adversarial about it...

I'm really sorry, I have absolutely nothing against you, my apologies for sounding so adversarial.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

On the subject of soul coins: I've always found it utterly baffling, (and arguably a vestige of materialist assumptions), that souls can be annihilated in the first place.

 

[Bolares]

Note it's the same level of information in the Baldur's Gate gazetter of DiA

Sure, both are great guides to the cities... I'm not saying that the waterdeep gazeteer is great and the baldur's gate one is bad. Both do their job well. My problem with the Baldur's gate part of the adventure is that to me it feels like the city is kind of disconnected from the avernus part of the adventure. Sure, the vanthapurs make a connection, and so do the refugees, but the main city off the adventure for me is Eltrugard, and I think they should make better connections to the city early. Maybe we start the adventure there, and while we are out in a smaller quest it gets trown in avernus. I get that using Baldur's gate name is a good marketing choice, but this adventure is about Eltrugard not baldur's gate.

 

[Lyxen]

On the subject of soul coins: I've always found it utterly baffling, (and arguably a vestige of materialist assumptions), that souls can be annihilated in the first place.

It's an interesting fantasy trope, because it provides a greater level of threat above and beyond death itself. In an universe where death is not final, you need something more terrible (or maybe more hopeful, because it's a great story when you prefer total oblivion to bearing the weight of your actions for all eternity).

Moreover, there have always been different levels of souls recycling, melding into the stuff of a plane for example, is a sort of annihilation as well.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

It's an interesting fantasy trope, because it provides a greater level of threat above and beyond death itself. In an universe where death is not final, you need something more terrible (or maybe more hopeful, because it's a great story when you prefer total oblivion to bearing the weight of your actions for all eternity).

Moreover, there have always been different levels of souls recycling, melding into the stuff of a plane for example, is a sort of annihilation as well.

Yes - and I find them all equally stupid and metaphysically implausible.

 

[Lyxen]

Sure, both are great guides to the cities... I'm not saying that the waterdeep gazeteer is great and the baldur's gate one is bad. Both do their job well. My problem with the Baldur's gate part of the adventure is that to me it feels like the city is kind of disconnected from the avernus part of the adventure. Sure, the vanthapurs make a connection, and so do the refugees, but the main city off the adventure for me is Eltrugard, and I think they should make better connections to the city early. Maybe we start the adventure there, and while we are out in a smaller quest it gets trown in avernus. I get that using Baldur's gate name is a good marketing choice, but this adventure is about Eltrugard not baldur's gate.

Hmmm. I think I see what you mean, let me try to explain. DiA takes you from level 1 to level 15, so basically from local boys to epic heroes. And the three main stages of the adventure basically mimic the three tiers that you are traversing:

• Local Heroes in Baldur's Gate
• Heroes of the Realm in Elturel
• Masters of the Realm in Avernus

For me, the weakest part is probably Elturel, although it's really totally open, almost a sandbox. But there are links between the three parts, recurring characters, and an overarching plot so for me it's not a bad adventure design at all. Not perfect, but honestly much better than DH and in particular much more open and ambitious.

 

[Lyxen]

Yes - and I find them all equally stupid and metaphysically implausible.

It's a fantasy multiverse, everything is possible and the metaphysics are exactly what the DMs want them to be. Note that the 3e WotC Adventure Path, although not that great, had a very interesting villain and premise, about the source of souls, for example.

As for the plausibility, even in earth religions, you clearly have very different destinies for souls.