D&D 5E Idea for Int

[Dausuul]

Yes, that is a similar issue which also exists. Both Intelligence and Charisma suffer from the problem that they give very little to any class that isn't based around it, where every other stat has something that you'll really miss if you dump it. Even Strength lets you carry more stuff.

As a guy who mostly plays casters with the occasional sneaky type (i.e., not Strength-based and not wearing heavy armor), Strength is my go-to dump stat. I do not "really miss," or indeed miss at all, the ability to carry more stuff. An 8 Strength gives me all the carrying capacity I'm likely to need. I do lose out on Athletics, but that's no worse than losing out on social skills for dumping Cha.

I think the real issue is the lack of Str, Int, and Cha saves. It's not a coincidence that the three favored dump stats are also the three minor-save stats.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Carrying capacity matters less than it used to, but it still matters. And talking to people doesn't rely on Charisma unless you're trying to manipulate them.

It's not like a Charisma of 8 turns you into a hideous monster or anything. Everything from 3-20 is in the functional adult range, and a score of 8 is imperceptibly below average unless you have an extended interaction.

Encumbrance in 5e is completely hand waved unless you use the variant rule. So it literally doesn't matter. Even with the Str x 15 rule, that's a lot more carrying capacity at Str 8 than I ever have in Pathfinder. That's the equivalent of Str 12 in Pathfinder, with no low, medium, high encumbrance penalties. So even then, it really doesn't matter.

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[The Crimson Binome]

Encumbrance in 5e is completely hand waved unless you use the variant rule. So it literally doesn't matter. Even with the Str x 15 rule, that's a lot more carrying capacity at Str 8 than I ever have in Pathfinder. That's the equivalent of Str 12 in Pathfinder, with no low, medium, high encumbrance penalties. So even then, it really doesn't matter.

The basic rule in 5E is Strength x 15. The variant is that you're encumbered after five times and heavily encumbered after ten times. Saying that you can just carry whatever, without worrying about weight, is not an option presented anywhere in 5E (at least, not in the Basic Rules).

And even if you're using the basic rule, rather than the variant, 120 lbs adds up quickly. It may not seem like a significant limitation, but it's still going to affect you every day, since it determines what sort of equipment and supplies you can carry. A healer's kit is 3lbs, each healing potion is 0.5lbs, rope is 5-10lbs, and a day's rations are 2lbs. Water is heavy. A staff is heavy. Loot, if you're lucky enough to find any, is heavy. It all adds up.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

And even if you're using the basic rule, rather than the variant, 120 lbs adds up quickly. It may not seem like a significant limitation, but it's still going to affect you every day, since it determines what sort of equipment and supplies you can carry. A healer's kit is 3lbs, each healing potion is 0.5lbs, rope is 5-10lbs, and a day's rations are 2lbs. Water is heavy. A staff is heavy. Loot, if you're lucky enough to find any, is heavy. It all adds up.

...until you find a bag of holding.

Or a mule.

Whichever turns up first.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Encumbrance in 5e is completely hand waved unless you use the variant rule. So it literally doesn't matter. Even with the Str x 15 rule, that's a lot more carrying capacity at Str 8 than I ever have in Pathfinder. That's the equivalent of Str 12 in Pathfinder, with no low, medium, high encumbrance penalties. So even then, it really doesn't matter.

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Some of you seem to be forgetting that the reason the standard encumbrance rule is so generous is because armor has strength requirements. So, in addition to encumbrance, the fact that Athletics tends to be more useful than all of the Int skills combined, that strength is used for all basic attacks with the hardest-hitting weapons, and for grappling, strength is also required for decent AC if you aren't Dex-based.

Strength is not what I would consider a dump stat. Even at its worst I think it's marginally better than Int is at its best, unless your DM goes out of their way to emphasize it. Wizards are literally the only class that don't directly benefit from dumping Int. It's actually kind of asinine that it's being defended by anyone.

 

[KahlessNestor]

The basic rule in 5E is Strength x 15. The variant is that you're encumbered after five times and heavily encumbered after ten times. Saying that you can just carry whatever, without worrying about weight, is not an option presented anywhere in 5E (at least, not in the Basic Rules).

And even if you're using the basic rule, rather than the variant, 120 lbs adds up quickly. It may not seem like a significant limitation, but it's still going to affect you every day, since it determines what sort of equipment and supplies you can carry. A healer's kit is 3lbs, each healing potion is 0.5lbs, rope is 5-10lbs, and a day's rations are 2lbs. Water is heavy. A staff is heavy. Loot, if you're lucky enough to find any, is heavy. It all adds up.

You missed the "high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it." That's a handwave, and essentially what is done in AL. There isn't even space for it on the character sheet, that's how important it is to the game. Unlike Pathfinder, which requires very detailed accounting of it.

So unless your DM is making a thing of it...it's not a thing in 5e, not with the high threshold and simplistic rules and the handwave.

EDIT : And remember, none of this is actually counting armor, which, if worn, is simply covered under Strength, not encumbrance. I dare say one could carry the entire equipment list with 120 lbs (8 Strength).

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[TheCosmicKid]

Strength is not what I would consider a dump stat. Even at its worst I think it's marginally better than Int is at its best, unless your DM goes out of their way to emphasize it. Wizards are literally the only class that don't directly benefit from dumping Int. It's actually kind of asinine that it's being defended by anyone.

I play a bard with 8 Str, 16 Int, and 0 regrets.

 

[Einlanzer0]

I play a bard with 8 Str, 16 Int, and 0 regrets.

I'm not sure why you would have any. For a College of Lore bard, Str is more or less a "dump" stat and therefore comparable to Intelligence. That doesn't mean there aren't several issues:

1. There are way, way more builds for which Str is not a dump stat, including many builds that it's supplemental for rather than primary.
2. Even as tertiary stat not used at all in your build, Str is at least as good as Int, if not still slightly better. This is particularly true if you already have a high Int character in the party and/or if you're using alternate encumbrance rules (which I do).
3. Str's contribution is hard, rather than soft, meaning, it isn't subject to metagaming around and is and is not reliant on DM's operating in a certain way.

End of the day, it's a commonly held view that Intelligence is poorly balanced in 5e, as it is far more prevalent as a dump stat than any other attribute is. There's a very obvious reason for this, and it's one I am to fix in my games. I'm also considering modifying the skill list between Int and Wis to increase the values of some of the individual skills (i.e. rolling several knowledges into one, moving Medicine from Wisdom, replacing it with a couple of new skills for Wisdom, etc.).

I'm thinking that I'll use my initial proposal in conjunction with granting a bonus language/skill/tool proficiency if your Int is 14 or higher and one additional one at 18th or higher (or maybe just one additional one for 15+). I'll probably do a minor compensation for wizards (i.e. giving them only one base proficiency, which sort of makes sense anyway given how much of a mental burden it is to master their form of arcane magic), although I don't think much is needed since you could easily argue that in raw it's unfair how gimpy their main stat is.

My idea would be for all of the attributes to compete well with Constitution, so you could have a lot of interesting variety in character building. There's a good chance I'll find additional ways to tweak Wis and Cha to meet this goal.

 

[Einlanzer0]

You missed the "high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it." That's a handwave, and essentially what is done in AL. There isn't even space for it on the character sheet, that's how important it is to the game. Unlike Pathfinder, which requires very detailed accounting of it.

So unless your DM is making a thing of it...it's not a thing in 5e, not with the high threshold and simplistic rules and the handwave.

EDIT : And remember, none of this is actually counting armor, which, if worn, is simply covered under Strength, not encumbrance. I dare say one could carry the entire equipment list with 120 lbs (8 Strength).

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I'm pretty sure armor is calculated into encumbrance. It just also has minimum strength requirements in the basic rules.

 

[Giant2005]

In a single player game, Int is probably your best choice of dump stat, but in a group -based game, that becomes less true.
Sure Int is tied to the least amount of saves but that is barely even a factor - I'm not sure if any of my characters have ever actually had to make a saving throw against any of the secondary saving throws since the release of the game.
What is worth much more consideration is the skills and how well covered they are by your party. Because there are so many classes with strong incentives to have high Strength and/or Charisma, you are better off making those your dump stats (unless you are one of the classes that needs them). It is likely that there will be people capable of making those skill rolls in your party and even a secondary specialist to cover in case of poor rolls from the primary specialist. Even if you have a Wizard around to take care of Intelligence-based stuff, it is good to have someone that at least has a hope of covering him in case of a bad roll.
The fact that there is only one class that benefits from Int is exactly why you shouldn't be neglecting it if possible.