D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Maxperson]

This was my point exactly. I was referring to another poster who argued that WotC should maintain a narrow perspective of what is "allowable."

And I just pointed out that there's nothing to maintain. WotC already has an out for those who don't want gods. The DMG talks to the DM about it. I think the section could use enhancement, but it's already there.

It's literally published in Eberron as mentioned with how the Blood of Vol functions as a religion. This has been published many times in many different ways in D&D, going back to at least 3e. Your claim is demonstrably wrong.

First, Eberron is the last setting that could possibly be used to prove me wrong. It's whole thing is that the gods and the divine are distant and unknown, so you can't tell me if what the Blood of Vol believes is true, or a crock of horse pucky and they get their spells from something else. For all you know, there's only one god that supplies power to any religion that people come up with.

Second, in any case, no setting can disprove my claim that D&D(the default core rules) doesn't allow individual clerics to power their own spells. That's something you can decide for your setting, but it's not how D&D treats things by default.

No one is saying that mortals and the gods are the same. My point was that divinity, within D&D in particular and fantasy in general, can take many forms and is only limited by the fantasy at any particular table.

Which is how it has always been.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

And I just pointed out that there's nothing to maintain. WotC already has an out for those who don't want gods. The DMG talks to the DM about it. I think the section could use enhancement, but it's already there.

Ok. I think we're on the same page here? We're both saying that WotC has been inclusive with how a play style without gods can be considered. My main point was arguing against someone's perspective that publishing such an out was somehow wrong.

First, Eberron is the last setting that could possibly be used to prove me wrong. It's whole thing is that the gods and the divine are distant and unknown, so you can't tell me if what the Blood of Vol believes is true, or a crock of horse pucky and they get their spells from something else. For all you know, there's only one god that supplies power to any religion that people come up with.

Well I started playing when Eberron came out, so it serves as a personal source for my formative D&D experiences. Also, the creator has explicitly discussed this topic in other supplements and on his website, and has supported the idea that power may legitimately come from within an individual, rather than a misinterpretation where the power is actually coming from some divine source. I would say that's a pretty good primary source.

Second, in any case, no setting can disprove my claim that D&D(the default core rules) doesn't allow individual clerics to power their own spells. That's something you can decide for your setting, but it's not how D&D treats things by default.

Which is how it has always been.

I'll be honest, I'm not a D&D scholar so I can't point to any specific counter to this. But if what you claim is the the core rules don't allow clerics to power their own spells, but there is a section in the DMG that discusses this possibility, then how is it not in the core rules? There may be a specificity in the wording that I'm not aware of, and I'm not going to pour over the core rule books from multiple editions to try and counter the point. But I would bet there's somewhere in the core rules that suggest the idea.

Regardless, D&D has never been ruled by or limited by the core rules. D&D began as an ad hoc set of mechanics and lore, and so the idea of a core rule set doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot.

 

[Maxperson]

Ok. I think we're on the same page here? We're both saying that WotC has been inclusive with how a play style without gods can be considered. My main point was arguing against someone's perspective that publishing such an out was somehow wrong.



Well I started playing when Eberron came out, so it serves as a personal source for my formative D&D experiences. Also, the creator has explicitly discussed this topic in other supplements and on his website, and has supported the idea that power may legitimately come from within an individual, rather than a misinterpretation where the power is actually coming from some divine source. I would say that's a pretty good primary source.



I'll be honest, I'm not a D&D scholar so I can't point to any specific counter to this. But if what you claim is the the core rules don't allow clerics to power their own spells, but there is a section in the DMG that discusses this possibility, then how is it not in the core rules? There may be a specificity in the wording that I'm not aware of, and I'm not going to pour over the core rule books from multiple editions to try and counter the point. But I would bet there's somewhere in the core rules that suggest the idea.

Regardless, D&D has never been ruled by or limited by the core rules. D&D began as an ad hoc set of mechanics and lore, and so the idea of a core rule set doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot.

The DMG has no rules. 5e explicitly says that the rules to play the game are in the PHB. The DMG is just advice on various ways the DM can decide to run things and/or world build. What you are talking about is world building. It's setting specific, not a core rule. The core rules in the PHB says clerics need gods to give them spells and power. That's the default.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

they can do that even when your cleric does not follow that god, and the DM can mess with you even without using any gods at all…

Yes, and? That they can do it in other ways is not a reason to put up with it being done in this specific way...

 

[mamba]

Yes, and? That they can do it in other ways is not a reason to put up with it being done in this specific way...

it just means that you cannot use that way to prevent being messed with, and if your reason for choosing this type of cleric is the DM, then the problem that needs addressing is the DM

 

[Maxperson]

it just means that you cannot use that way to prevent being messed with, and if your reason for choosing this type of cleric is the DM, then the problem that needs addressing is the DM

I disagree. Some ways of being messed with are worse for someone than other ways. For me, losing magic items was always frustrating. I'd almost rather lose the character. Losing my powers for lack of faith, though, that wasn't so bad unless the DM took forever to get to a point where you could atone.

 

[Voadam]

I disagree. Some ways of being messed with are worse for someone than other ways. For me, losing magic items was always frustrating. I'd almost rather lose the character. Losing my powers for lack of faith, though, that wasn't so bad unless the DM took forever to get to a point where you could atone.

Heh, flip that for my preferences.

Items come and go and I do not really consider it a big deal. Potentially having the morality and rightness of how you play your character being judged by someone else and having your powers taken away because of their view of how you should play your character is very unappealing to me. I particularly had no interest in roleplaying atoning over morality judgment calls I did not agree with.

It is why I did not play clerics and paladins in AD&D and played 3e crusading godless clerics of good or only played clerics and paladins in 3e and on after checking in with the DM on how they would handle such issues and being confident there would not be such a situation.

Others I know feel that roleplaying a paladin falling then seeking atonement is awesome fun and one of the cooler things in the game.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

And that's fine. The question then becomes, however, where do the clerical super powers come from?

The power of belief and/or souls. Like how gods get their power in Planescape, Theros, the Forgotten Realms, and a few other settings I'm forgetting. Souls have magical power in D&D (they can be transformed into demons/devils, consumed as magical fuel in infernal engines/lich phylacteries, etc), so you could rule that a Cleric/Paladin that worships themselves is drawing from the magic of their souls and the devotion/rituals that they perform as a cleric allows them to unlock that magic.

There are several ways you could explain it/justify it. Belief is power in base D&D. IIRC, in Planescape Torment you can literally convince someone else that they don't exist, which results in them being erased from existence. Why wouldn't something similar work if you believed that you had divine power?

 

[mamba]

I disagree. Some ways of being messed with are worse for someone than other ways.

Potentially having the morality and rightness of how you play your character being judged by someone else and having your powers taken away because of their view of how you should play your character is very unappealing to me. I particularly had no interest in roleplaying atoning over morality judgment calls I did not agree with.

My point was more that if a DM wants to mess with you, there is not really anything you can do about it, short of finding a different DM. I agree that different people value different things differently, so it still might be beneficial for someone to not have their powers taken away, if that is the one thing they really care about and can tolerate the rest.

As a DM I am very reluctant to take powers away, it basically never happens, and certainly not without quite a few warnings about the path the char has chosen first. So far this has been purely hypothetical, even the threat almost never shows up.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The power of belief and/or souls. Like how gods get their power in Planescape, Theros, the Forgotten Realms, and a few other settings I'm forgetting. Souls have magical power in D&D (they can be transformed into demons/devils, consumed as magical fuel in infernal engines/lich phylacteries, etc), so you could rule that a Cleric/Paladin that worships themselves is drawing from the magic of their souls and the devotion/rituals that they perform as a cleric allows them to unlock that magic.

There are several ways you could explain it/justify it. Belief is power in base D&D. IIRC, in Planescape Torment you can literally convince someone else that they don't exist, which results in them being erased from existence. Why wouldn't something similar work if you believed that you had divine power?

If you can get whatever superpowers you want by believing hard enough, then seeking external power is meaningless. An awful lot of stuff in D&D seems pretty pointless if that's true.