If the mage spells are being weakened, what compensation is being given to the mage?

[Eldragon]

I disagree. The previous haste let a wizard cast two save-or-die spells per round. The victim's hit points were irrelevant, as was the fighter's ability to do 100 points of damage per round, crits included. The fighter doesn't get a full-round attack, and I blow my opponent away. No contest.

I was focusing on low-level casters and 3e Haste's usefulness at those levels. Haste can be cast by a 5th level wizard, so it is best to compare it with characters at the minimum levels to cast the spell. The new haste is better for parties at lower levels than the old one.

Imagine Haste being used on 5-5th level Fighters. If each fighter wields a greatsword, has 18 str, and weapon specialization, that is an avarage of 15 damage on a successful hit (excluding crits). Even if only 1/2 of the fighters hit in a round, thats an average of 37.5 damage. And that effect is going to last 5 rounds. A 5th level wizard casting 5d6 with a direct damage spell (e.g. Fireball) can at do at most 30 damage, with an avarage of only 17.5, even less if the target(s) pass their save. Sure fireball is area effect, but I would take 5 hasted fighters over that one fireball anyday.

When you get to 11th level casters 3e Haste breaks the game, simple as that. My DM had to resort to sending 2 or more of any we would fight at us-- knowing that the Wizard in the party would use haste to kill the first creature in the opening two rounds.

Am done playing mages forever? hell no. I am just not going to start any new mage characters until the 3.5 conversion is complete.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Whoa.

Didn't we just have like 9 pages of this discussion? And again it explodes?

Whoa.

I, personally, fail to see the issue.

Nerfing the buff durations hurts melee types more than wizards. Haste was overpowered to begin with, and wizards still have a way to cast multiple spells per round. As to the save-or-die spells (not having seen them all, of course) -- it looks like the net effect at lower levels is exactly the same, but that the mechanic now scales to be something reasonable at higher levels.

If anything, so far the sum total of changes looks better for everyone all around -- but then, I'm primarily a DM, so I'm not as emotionally attached to the configuration of a given class as a regular player of that class might be. My loyalty is to the system as a whole.

 

[Tidus4444]

Whoa.

Didn't we just have like 9 pages of this discussion? And again it explodes?

Whoa.

I, personally, fail to see the issue.

Nerfing the buff durations hurts melee types more than wizards. Haste was overpowered to begin with, and wizards still have a way to cast multiple spells per round. As to the save-or-die spells (not having seen them all, of course) -- it looks like the net effect at lower levels is exactly the same, but that the mechanic now scales to be something reasonable at higher levels.

If anything, so far the sum total of changes looks better for everyone all around -- but then, I'm primarily a DM, so I'm not as emotionally attached to the configuration of a given class as a regular player of that class might be. My loyalty is to the system as a whole.

Reread my post. The loss of buff spells hurts Wizards just as much as Fighters. It would be like a Cleric losing heal spells. Sure, heal spells don't benefit the Cleric directly, but heal spells are a good deal of the Cleric's strength because it is so good for the party. Same with buffs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

There is no need for a Flame War.

I merely ask what changes have been made to the wizard and sorcerer, noting that I had heard these classes were being weakened for Dungeons and Dragons 3.5.

- - -

I would note that, if it is true that the spells Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, and such spells, have had their duration reduced to 1 minute per level from one hour per level ... then this will hurt the fighter characters also.
And do you want to know why it will hurt the fighters?

Perhaps WOTC wishes to discourage wizard characters from being auxillary support platforms for the other classes.
Perhaps WOTC does not wish mages to be given such incentive to take spells that will help the other classes. (As clerics are given such incentive.)

And so, with the new one minute per level limit ... wizards will not memorize these spells!

Too bad for the fighter. He was counting on that extra damage. That extra attack bonus. Now, he won't get it.
Which means the monsters are all that much more likely to survive the fighter's efforts in battle.
Which means the monsters are all that much more likely to kill the fighter.
To bad for the fighter. He cannot even say: WOTC weakened my class, and it killed me. The poor fighter must now say: WOTC weakened ANOTHER class, and it killed me!

What affects one class, affects all the other classes, for good or bad.
That is because D&D is a cooperative venture, where the efforts of all the classes are required for survival in an adventure.
If you alter one class, you change the dynamics for the entire group, and I just do not see any way around this.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'd just like to point out one other factor people aren't considering (and it's been pointed out before, but it's worth repeating)...

3.5 has new spells added to the list. And until everyone sees what they are and how they work, any discussion of the wizard's overall spell list is, by definition, flawed.

 

[JoeBlank]

Nerfing the buff durations hurts melee types more than wizards. Haste was overpowered to begin with, and wizards still have a way to cast multiple spells per round. As to the save-or-die spells (not having seen them all, of course) -- it looks like the net effect at lower levels is exactly the same, but that the mechanic now scales to be something reasonable at higher levels.

Although the nerf hurts melee types "more" than wizards, it certainly hurts wizards and sorcerers directly, and not just by limiting how much they can buff others. For instance, spells are much easier to come by than feats, even for a sorcerer. Rather than take Spell Focus and other DC boosting feats (which are also apparently being nerfed), I had planned for my sorcerer to take Eagle's Splendor. He would have used it as a DC-booster (and may still, but it certainly won't be as effective. If he takes the spell now he will only use it in situations where he is faced with oppenents he expects to have high saves, or that keep saving v. his spells.)

And Haste was the only reasonable way for sorcerers to get more than one spell per round. (The only other method now costs 2 feats, Arcane Preparation and Quicken. And the AP feat goes against the grain of the sorcerer in most cases.)

For the most part, I am playing devil's advocate here, as I like the buff and Haste nerfs. (I could have live with 10 min/level for buffs.) The problem with Haste in particular is that to not take it is to seriously hinder your arcane caster. A sorcerer or wizard without Haste will be only half as effective as one with the spell. As it is a must-take spell, I find it overpowered and am glad to see it nerfed.

The buffs I just don't much like the flavor of. I was dreading higher level play when everyone expects to have a few buffs up at all times.

 

[Staffan]

Has the "2d6/level" for former instakill spells been confirmed? I recall reading somewhere that it would be 20+level d6 instead... which would make Disintegrate do a minimum of 31d6 instead of 22d6, with an average damage of ~110 hp or so instead of 77.

 

[Barastrondo]

Too bad for the fighter. He was counting on that extra damage. That extra attack bonus. Now, he won't get it.

Speaking purely for myself, if I'm playing someone with the character concept of "a good fighter," I don't tend to add "but only when some spellcaster charitably throws a spell on me." I like the idea with fighters not walking around with buff spells on all day, because it goes back to the fighter being defined by what he can do and what fighting skills he has, not by how many buffing spells he can eke out of his adventuring companions.

It really just goes back to the simple design principle of looking at a particular spell, feat, tactic or whatnot and asking "Is there really any real reason to do anything other than this?" If the answer is "no," then that particular aspect of the system is out of whack.

 

[rangerjohn]

Sounds like you want a no magic system. If all the power comes from the character, then no spells, no magic sword, no cloak of protection, nothing. Not even a bag of holding, you be able to drag the treasure out all by your lonsome. Also if you can do everything why have a party?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there, Rangerjohn.

My experience with No Magic systems is ... unique?

I have run campaigns in which disaster overtook the party in the form of repeated Fireballs, mass area attacks, breath weapons, and the like, which destroyed all (or nearly all) of the magical items and spellbooks possessed by the party.
Now, this could have led to some interesting play, but it invariably led to the ENTIRE group threatening to quit if said disaster was not withdrawn by the DM.
I would daresay players seem to become addicted to their magic items!

As for me, my characters have suffered disastrous losses of magic items and spellbooks.
It got so bad my characters finally gave up wearing clothing ... clothing was the first thing that went (up in smoke, typically) when the fireball, breath weapon, or area effect attack hit.

Iin 3.5 it sounds like the wizard, if given a chance to acquire new spells, is going to choose Melf's Acid Arrow or Invisibility or Web, and not choose Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace.
After all, spells tend to be HARD to acquire, and what is the point of acquiring spells perceived to be useless?
This, of course, means that Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace may not be available to the party at all, period, regardless of whether those spells would still be of any use or not.

Perception, in this case (on the part of the wizard) is the most important deciding factor.

As for the Sorcerer, it sounds like he is NEVER going to choose Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, when given his few spells usuable (and not changeable once taken) he will always choose spells of greater potency and use.

Just commenting.
Based on the changes being made, that is how it sounds like it will be.
Again, I must wonder if that is the way WOTC wishes it to be ...