Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Alzrius]

Belzamus, hope you don't mind my chiming in here. The bonuses and penalties from size alterations are all cumulative. In the example you provided, the creature advancing in size would gain +15 natural armor.

 

[Belzamus]

Not at all. Thanks a lot.

 

[Kerrick]

Question, U_K.

Natural Armor from size increases. Is each gain cumulative or overlapping.

Say I advanced a creature from Colossal to Macro-Fine. Would its total natural armor= its original +8 or its orignal +15 (+7 from Titanic and +8 from Macro-Fine).

I hope the question makes sense, it's kind of hard to articulate.

I would say they overlap - i.e., you recalculate the bonus based on the new size.

Question: How would you handle beings that are outside of the normal "rank structure" of divine beings, but that are immortal and have the ability to kill gods? I.e., the Furies and the Four Horsemen? I was thinking they'd be Rank 0 outsiders called Forces of the Cosmos (my old DM's term) - they can never truly be "killed", as they are concepts, not actual beings. For example, if one of the Furies is slain, the most powerful of the erinyes is raised to take her place. They would, however, have the ability to affect (and kill) divine beings stronger than they are, because that's what they do. The Elder Evils would probably fall into this category as well - Fenris Wolf, for instance, couldn't be killed, but only chained to a rock for all eternity.

 

[dante58701]

Question: How would you handle beings that are outside of the normal "rank structure" of divine beings, but that are immortal and have the ability to kill gods? I.e., the Furies and the Four Horsemen? I was thinking they'd be Rank 0 outsiders called Forces of the Cosmos (my old DM's term) - they can never truly be "killed", as they are concepts, not actual beings. For example, if one of the Furies is slain, the most powerful of the erinyes is raised to take her place. They would, however, have the ability to affect (and kill) divine beings stronger than they are, because that's what they do. The Elder Evils would probably fall into this category as well - Fenris Wolf, for instance, couldn't be killed, but only chained to a rock for all eternity.

I'd say it's time for a new template.

It could, perhaps, be called Incarnation.

 

[Belzamus]

Ok, two questions.

The first regards the Unerring property found in the Bestiary. This is clearly NOT a +25 enhancment bonus since Cosmic Weapon Focus (forget the name) allows for all attacks to be Touch Attacks and would (unless I'm missing something) be a +36 enhancement bonus. Shouldn't Unerring be closer to +216, minus a bunch for that 5% miss chance?

Secondly, Uncanny Weapon Focus is rendered totally redundant by the new revised martial classes on the site since they already have their sub-epic attack bonus continued. What should Uncanny be changed to?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I would say they overlap - i.e., you recalculate the bonus based on the new size.

Question: How would you handle beings that are outside of the normal "rank structure" of divine beings, but that are immortal and have the ability to kill gods? I.e., the Furies and the Four Horsemen? I was thinking they'd be Rank 0 outsiders called Forces of the Cosmos (my old DM's term) - they can never truly be "killed", as they are concepts, not actual beings. For example, if one of the Furies is slain, the most powerful of the erinyes is raised to take her place. They would, however, have the ability to affect (and kill) divine beings stronger than they are, because that's what they do. The Elder Evils would probably fall into this category as well - Fenris Wolf, for instance, couldn't be killed, but only chained to a rock for all eternity.

Well I don't necessarily believe we need a whole new category. The divinity templates in Ascension are fully modular and you can tweak them to suit individual needs. All power being relative I wouldn't think you needed to change very much at all.

There are powers in Ascension that prevent you from being killed except by beings of equal or greater power.

The term Elder Evils is slightly misleading given the power attributed to such beings in the book (Elder Evils) are generally sub-standard to actually enslaving or destroying a world.

Most Elder Evils seem akin to either Abominations or Entities (Cosmic Abominations).

Atropus...Entity
Father Llymic...Abomination
Hulks of Zoretha...Abominations
Leviathan...Entity
Pandorym...Entity
Ragnorra...Abomination...maybe Entity level?
Sertrous...Abomination
The Worm That Walks...Abomination
Zargon...Abomination

Of the above I would say that the true forms of Atropus, Leviathan, Pandorym and probably Ragnorra are the likely Entities that could threaten an actual world.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Belzamus mate!

Ok, two questions.

Fire away.

The first regards the Unerring property found in the Bestiary. This is clearly NOT a +25 enhancment bonus since Cosmic Weapon Focus (forget the name) allows for all attacks to be Touch Attacks and would (unless I'm missing something) be a +36 enhancement bonus. Shouldn't Unerring be closer to +216, minus a bunch for that 5% miss chance?

No. You see a +25 bonus by itself would almost allow you to hit any target, and you'd get +25 to damage too.

So the power of Unerring makes sense.

Secondly, Uncanny Weapon Focus is rendered totally redundant by the new revised martial classes on the site since they already have their sub-epic attack bonus continued. What should Uncanny be changed to?

Interesting. I'll have to have a think about that one.

Thanks in advance.

[/QUOTE]

Happy to help.

 

[Belzamus]

While that's true, it doesn't really take into account extreme power attack ratios. Say....a frenzied berserker's 4:1 double to 8:1 with Leap Attack and then (let's assume level 70 character) they can sink 70 points into their attack for +560 damage per hit which is multiplied on a critical (let's call it a great axe) and with Greater Critical Multiplier that makes it +3,920 damage just from power attack.

I see where you're coming from and it makes sense for every purpose but power attack dumping, which even the ability description mentions. (And that extra damage is enough to drop most monsters in that range in one round without even adding in any other charging multipliers.)

 

[Kerrick]

Well I don't necessarily believe we need a whole new category. The divinity templates in Ascension are fully modular and you can tweak them to suit individual needs. All power being relative I wouldn't think you needed to change very much at all.

Okay.

There are powers in Ascension that prevent you from being killed except by beings of equal or greater power.

Weeelll... things like the Fates can't be killed. At least, not permanently. Think Mr. Smith from Matrix - if you kill him, he can just inhabit a new body, take it over, and bam - he's back. That's essentially what a force of the cosmos is: an ideal or a concept, not an actual being. It's why Fenris is chained, instead of just being killed - if you kill him, his spirit would just manifest in another brachyurus and be free.

That's why I was thinking something along the lines of divine rank 0 (because most of them aren't actually divine beings), but with special abilities (probably as a result of a template of some sort). I might sit down this weekend and whip something up.

The term Elder Evils is slightly misleading given the power attributed to such beings in the book (Elder Evils) are generally sub-standard to actually enslaving or destroying a world.

Most Elder Evils seem akin to either Abominations or Entities (Cosmic Abominations).

Now what's a cosmic abomination? Simply a larger/more powerful version of an abomination?

 

[paradox42]

Weeelll... things like the Fates can't be killed. At least, not permanently. Think Mr. Smith from Matrix - if you kill him, he can just inhabit a new body, take it over, and bam - he's back. That's essentially what a force of the cosmos is: an ideal or a concept, not an actual being. It's why Fenris is chained, instead of just being killed - if you kill him, his spirit would just manifest in another brachyurus and be free.

But that's exactly what Ascension does have in it. Cosmic String is probably good enough for most such beings- it's precisely what the Cosmic beings (Old Ones, First Ones, that sort) are actually supposed to be. Metatron, for example, is not just an Angel, Metatron actually IS Good in the most fundamental sense. So how would you kill that? This is what Cosmic String does. And of course, there's also Transmortality at the next higher level, which says you just plain can't be killed even by a being of greater divine status.

Agent Smith, from those movies, is essentially the Matrix's response to the existence of Neo- Smith exists because Neo exists. Therefore, Smith is the concept of "opposition to Neo" in the purest sense, from the perspective of the universe defined by the Matrix as opposed to the Real World. I believe the Oracle actually states this during the third movie, though I admit I haven't seen it in a few years.

Now what's a cosmic abomination? Simply a larger/more powerful version of an abomination?

UK has never given us actual examples of Entities so we could find out in statistics terms: but yes, that's pretty much what Entities are supposed to be. Misbegotten spawn of the Sidereals and Overgods, whereas Abominations are misbegotten spawn of Gods. That's the base concept anyway: obviously one can tweak it to fit other circumstances (the Elder Evils are a perfect example).