Insight's Secret Wars OOC Thread

[Jemal]

I'm aware of that. There still isn't any "full round action" in 3rd ed.

huh.. didn't know that.. kinda weird after playing in all the other d20 systems that do use it.

Well, it's OK except for my above explanation about how Side Effect works. I'm also not sure about that flat -2pp deduction; it seems to me with your sort of speed that it's a moot point, although I suppose flying targets *might* be out of reach (ie, your comment about Leaping).

Well, about the flat deduction: It's definitely circumstantial (Explaining why it isn't worth a -1/rank limit), but it's still limiting. Don't forget that in addition to things outside of her 'reach' for some reason (Obstacles, flight, being on top of a building, shooting through a hole, etc) it also can be stopped/shortened by anything that hampers her movement(I was going to mention Immobilize/Snared, but then remembered she's specifically immune to entrapment or forced movement.. but not hampered movement), or effects that could nullify her super speed. If you still think it's only worth a flat 1 instead of 2, then I'll bow to your wishes.

As far as Side Effect, I'm not following what you're saying.. I always read it that it's a side effect equal to the effect, not just flat out damage with ranks equal to the cost of the effect before flaws.. A few questions are in order.
A: The way you interpret it, does the side effect count the extras? Does it count Flaws other than Side Effect?
B: Does the effect have a PL cap like we do? (IE if you decide that it's a 32 point effect, does that mean I get hit by a Rank 32 damage effect, or does it cap at 10 and get applicable/appropriate modifiers such as penetrating/ a linked affliction?
C: How about this for a side effect: Essentially if she hits someone that resists, she actually 'runs into' them, and is stopped short b/c they are able to resist her almost irresistible force. She ends up in front of them(no save no choice movement (Speed rank 8 Representing her base speed, and ensuring she can reach her destination), and is struck by an affliction that 'knocks her silly/down/out' (Affliction rank X: 1 degree=dazed, 2 degrees = prone, 3 degrees=incapacitaded), and a damage Rank X effect.

IE If it works the way I think it does (It counts the end cost of the power EXCEPT for the side effect flaw itself), the side effect would be worth 20 points(Assuming the movement limiter is reduced to flat 1 from 2).
SO.. Speed 8*Limited: Predetermined destination-1=only worth 4 pp*, leaving 16 points to be divided for Affliction 8/Damage 8?
Seems like a pretty punishing side effect.. Looses further attacks, has forced movement plus two saves, one causing possible damage/dazed/unconscious, and one for dazed/prone/incapacitated.
Not as bad as "roll a 20 or you're out" though, which is what it'd be with a simple max rank damage effect.

Thoughts?

OR D: Should I just drop the side effect and try to find a way to pay the extra 10 points?

 

[Insight]

Well, about the flat deduction: It's definitely circumstantial (Explaining why it isn't worth a -1/rank limit), but it's still limiting. Don't forget that in addition to things outside of her 'reach' for some reason (Obstacles, flight, being on top of a building, shooting through a hole, etc) it also can be stopped/shortened by anything that hampers her movement(I was going to mention Immobilize/Snared, but then remembered she's specifically immune to entrapment or forced movement.. but not hampered movement), or effects that could nullify her super speed. If you still think it's only worth a flat 1 instead of 2, then I'll bow to your wishes.

The bottom line to any flaw is "does this limit the power?" If you are putting a flaw on a melee attack and then taking a flaw that requires you to be able to reach them... that's implied as part of it being a melee attack.

Another possibility that occurred to me is to allow Move-by Attack to be ranked. Each rank (beyond the first) of Move-by Attack allows you to attack one additional target. This would require the Multi-Attack (Multi-Target) extra. Obviously, this would cost more points, so that's something to consider.

A: The way you interpret it, does the side effect count the extras? Does it count Flaws other than Side Effect?

As I said, the text requires some interpretation, possibly errata (side note -- is there any errata for the Heroes Handbook?)

It says that you take the cost of the effect (meaning everything - base effect, extras, and flaws) and that is the point value of the side effect. If you read the section on apply extras and flaws, it says that they modify the effect - to me, that means that they are part of the effect and not something separate. By the same token, extras and flaws definitely apply to effects as part of an array (modifying the "total cost"), so I don't see why it would be any different outside of an array.

Applying it as strictly by RAW as possible, I would say that the Side Effect would be equal in points to the total cost of the effect (that includes the reduction for the Side Effect itself, which seems illogical). So, if your final cost - base effect, extras, and flaws - is 20pp, the side effect is 20pp.

B: Does the effect have a PL cap like we do? (IE if you decide that it's a 32 point effect, does that mean I get hit by a Rank 32 damage effect, or does it cap at 10 and get applicable/appropriate modifiers such as penetrating/ a linked affliction?

Theoretically, you would build the Side Effect like an attack power of some kind. I would say that it probably would be affected by PL limits. If your character had a 32pp Side Effect, it would need to have several extras and/or be composed of linked effects.

C: How about this for a side effect: Essentially if she hits someone that resists, she actually 'runs into' them, and is stopped short b/c they are able to resist her almost irresistible force. She ends up in front of them(no save no choice movement (Speed rank 8 Representing her base speed, and ensuring she can reach her destination), and is struck by an affliction that 'knocks her silly/down/out' (Affliction rank X: 1 degree=dazed, 2 degrees = prone, 3 degrees=incapacitaded), and a damage Rank X effect.

IE If it works the way I think it does (It counts the end cost of the power EXCEPT for the side effect flaw itself), the side effect would be worth 20 points(Assuming the movement limiter is reduced to flat 1 from 2).
SO.. Speed 8*Limited: Predetermined destination-1=only worth 4 pp*, leaving 16 points to be divided for Affliction 8/Damage 8?
Seems like a pretty punishing side effect.. Looses further attacks, has forced movement plus two saves, one causing possible damage/dazed/unconscious, and one for dazed/prone/incapacitated.
Not as bad as "roll a 20 or you're out" though, which is what it'd be with a simple max rank damage effect.

Thoughts?

OR D: Should I just drop the side effect and try to find a way to pay the extra 10 points?

Honestly, you are better off choosing another flaw. This is going to get your character killed / knocked out in just about every combat.

 

[hero4hire]

Honestly, you are better off choosing another flaw. This is going to get your character killed / knocked out in just about every combat.

I have to concur with this. As an attack vs multiple targets chances are with multiple saves some are going to make it. Odds almost guarantee it.

 

[Jemal]

statistically I think that's less likely than you think, but it's allready become too much of a pain to try and figure out, so I'll find another way.

I'm actually getting kind of perturbed by this character - I can't get this attack to work like I want it, and that was 99% of the reason I wanted to play him. If it would be OK for the story, I could just use Optic.. All of his stuff should be at a playable level. The reason I was leaning towards inertia was b/c of the connection to Ricochet, but Optic's a very easy character to connect to others, and the interim backstory I worked up for him already has him linked to several NPC's.

I'll try to come up with something for Inertia's attack while you think about Optic, and we'll figure something out.

 

[Thanee]

You could still look into using the actual Slam Maneuver.

You can move before it, so you can easily set it up with your movement speed, and the straight line for the Charge action shouldn't be a big problem that way.

And no Move-By should also be a fine limit for it (certainly less drastic than that Side Effect).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Insight]

I'll try to come up with something for Inertia's attack while you think about Optic, and we'll figure something out.

I would rather you decide which character you want to play first than me spend time going over Optic and then you decide to use Inertia.

Please make a decision by Monday. I plan to start the IC thread by then and I need to know which character you're using.

 

[Jemal]

Thanee - Slam was the first thing I looked at, but as I said before, Using slam as a primary attack is essentially choosing to be fighting offensively as a PL lower AND without the options that a Power or Stat-based attack can give, as well as taking the blow-back from EVERY strike. It's only half rank, but assuming a Rank 10 damage.. I'd rather take the rank 10 damage every once in a while when my opponent MAKES a save(1 in 4 assuming equivalent PL) than a Rank 5 damage EVERY time I attack someone. It's an ok option to have, but I couldn't bring myself to rely on it.
EDIT: Also, I'd have to have a higher Speed to get an effective attack with it, and I didn't want Inertia to be that fast.
EDIT 2: OK, I couldn't stop thinking about the stats.. damit, i had to do them..
[sblock=Pointless Number Crunching]
Assuming base PL 10 vs PL 10..
Side Effect: Dmg 10 when someone makes my save: They need to roll a 15+ (30% chance), and then I would make a DC 25 Toughness, needing a 14 to fail (70% chance to fail). SO, 21% chance to be wounded when hitting someone.
SLAM: Dmg 5 on each attack: DC 20, Needing a 9 to fail (45% chance to fail).

So, the SLAM is more than twice as likely to hurt me.
Sry, I just couldn't get the numbers out of my head, so I had to write'em down.
[/sblock]


Insight - If you're Ok with Optic, I'll just go with him, he should be good to go, and even if he's not he'll need less work than Inertia.

 

[Insight]

Insight - If you're Ok with Optic, I'll just go with him, he should be good to go, and even if he's not he'll need less work than Inertia.

That should be fine. I'll have a look at Optic today. Assuming its mostly OK, I may start the IC today (time permitting).

 

[Insight]

Just to put something closer to the most recent posts (this was on page 4 for me...)

Jemal, this is the most recent version of Optic I could find. This is what I'll be reviewing.

First draft Optic for 3e.
[sblock=Optic 3e]
Optic - PL 10

Abilities: 38 pp
STR 2
STA 2(4)
DEX 2
AGI 2(3)
FGT 2
INT 4
AWE 3(6)
PRE 2

Offenses:
Initiative: +7 (3 agi +4 Feat)
Melee Attack: +6 (2 fgt +4 Skill)
Ranged Attack: +6 (2 dex +4 Skill)
Specific Attacks:

Defenses:
Dodge: +10 (7 base +3 agi)
Parry: +10 (8 base +2 fgt)
Toughness: +10 (4 sta +6 protection)
Fort +10 (4 base +4 sta +2 enhanced)
Will +10 (4 base +6 awe)

Skills: (46 ranks = 23pp)
Deception +4 (2 ranks +2 pre)
Expertise: Eidetic Memory +10 (+4 Int +6 Feat)
Insight +20 (14 ranks +6 awe)
Investigation +10 (5 ranks +4 int +1 Feat)
Perception +20 (14 ranks +6 awe)
Persuasion +4 (2 ranks +2 pre)
Technology +10 (5 ranks +4 int +1 Feat)
Ranged Combat: Eye Blast +6 (4 ranks +2 dex)

Advantages: 7
Accurate Attack, Assessment, Benefit: Knowledgable(+1 Int checks), Eidetic Memory, Power Attack, Teamwork, Uncanny Dodge

Powers: 59
Enhanced Traits: Sta+2, Agi+1, Awe+3 - 12 pp
Enhanced Metabolism: Speed 1, Quickness 1, Regeneration 1, Imp. Init - 4pp
Eye Blast: Damage 8, Ranged (Precise, Accurate) - 18 pp
Super Sight: Analytical 2(All sight type), Counters Illusion(2), Extended 2(x100), Infravision, Rapid (x10), Tracking, Darkvision(2)*Noticeable=1*, Microscopic Vision 3(DNA)*Noticeable, Distracting=1*, Penetrates Concealment(4: Xray vision)*Noticeable, Distracting=1* - 12 pp
Feature: Record/Playback - 1pp

Super Suit(Removable): Total 15pp=12pp
Suit: Protection 6(6), Enhanced Traits: Fort+2(2)
Helmet/Visor: Immunity: Visual afflictions(2), Enhanced Blast 2, Accurate(5)


Complications: *Required 2*
Tradeoffs:
COST: 38 Abilities + 23 Skills + 7 Advantages + 59 Powers + 23 Defenses = 150/150[/sblock]

[sblock=Notes]Here are my notes:

1. This build is 3pp over (153pp).

2. You have the Super-Suit with an incorrect cost. Accurate 5 (5pp) + Enhanced Blast 2 (4pp) + Enhanced Fort +2 (2pp) + Immunity 2 - Visual Affliction effects (2pp) + Protection 6 (6pp) = 19pp, with Removeable (-1:5, so rounded to -4pp), this becomes 15pp, not 12pp.

3. The total attack bonus for your Blast is +12 and the effect is rank 10, so it is over the PL limit. You should probably get rid of a few ranks of Accurate somewhere (he has it on both the power itself and the suit).

4. What is Benefit: Knowledgeable? It is not listed anywhere in Heroes' Handbook that I can find. A +1 to all Int skills seems too good for a 1pp advantage. Please remove unless you can provide a source for this.

5. Expertise: Eidetic Memory doesn't make sense to me. Eidetic Memory is an advantage, not a skill. So Optic is the world's foremost authority on memory? This should probably be changed to Expertise: Science or something along those lines.

6. I'd like to see a background / origin to explain this character. I get the idea that he has an eye blast (a la Cyclops) and I sorta understand the whole "enhanced metabolism" thing, but his max PL skills (especially Insight) don't seem to fit. Also, all of his defenses are maxed. Not usually a problem, but, is he some kind of super-scientist/martial arts expert? Also, he needs some ties to the former Optic from Forever Freedom. Need complications, too.[/sblock]

 

[hero4hire]

Slam's circumstance modifier to damage is actually applied after PL caps. So for example a balanced +10 to hit with a 10 speed will be +8 to hit (-2 from the charge) and up to +12 damage.

Also one could take a tip from Tank shells or Rocket Launchers built in the core rules and apply an area effect to ranks of a targeted attack.

Say this for a 3 str and a 8 fighting?

Strength Based Strike 7 [Accurate, Line Area x2 on 7 damage, Only used for Charge Attacks; 15pp]

Would do a +8 hit attack +12 damage on a full slam. Does 7 area damage up to 60 feet to those in his "wake" (line area). That way you only roll one toughness for hitting someone as opposed to everyone who made a toughness save in the area. Plus you could do it on just a charge giving you more options to deal damage if wounded and not wanting to risk hurting yourself further.