Interesting Arcane Archer question...

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hmm...

You are very boring. Say something funny.

This is why Superman works alone.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Could you guys go somewhere else and quibble over personal issues please? It's disrupting my digestion of the current theoretical discussion. Much thanks.

 

[Tharkun]

So presuming something could emulate the damage, power, area & force of a nuclear weapon the Rogue should be allowed a Reflex save even if it's set off 1 inch from his head? As per the rules yes he's allowed a save but ain't no rogue that fast. There isn't enough time to get off a spell.

 

[James McMurray]

That would be a case of disallowing reflex saves for thermo nuclear weapons at ground zero, certainly a logical stance to take.

However, my question still stands: Do you allow a wizard to make a ranged touch attack to deny someone a reflex save with his Fireball. The bead will explode when it hits him, which is the same as an imbued arrow hitting.

Of course, that totally ignores the idea that a "hit" is not necessarily an arrow penetrating the flesh, but that's an issue which has been debated to death on other threads.

 

[Kai Lord]

So presuming something could emulate the damage, power, area & force of a nuclear weapon the Rogue should be allowed a Reflex save even if it's set off 1 inch from his head? As per the rules yes he's allowed a save but ain't no rogue that fast. There isn't enough time to get off a spell.

Yeah, but I'm sure a Tobey Maquire rogue could do some funky Bluff/Hide trick to make it look like he was incinerated so when the smoke clears he can sneak attack the wizard, or, if the wizard is too powerful, emerge from under the corpse of another combatant as the wizard turns and leaves.

 

[Kai Lord]

That would be a case of disallowing reflex saves for thermo nuclear weapons at ground zero, certainly a logical stance to take.

However, my question still stands: Do you allow a wizard to make a ranged touch attack to deny someone a reflex save with his Fireball. The bead will explode when it hits him, which is the same as an imbued arrow hitting.

I thought about that, and since you do make a ranged touch attack to shoot a Fireball through an arrow slit you'd think hitting someone would be entirely possible. I toyed with the idea of having a successful attack add to the Reflex save of the defender by however many points the attack exceeded the defender's AC.

 

[James McMurray]

That may not be too bad, but it adds yet another method for wizards to increase their save DCs.

Note that for a rules scenario that involves this general idea we have Flame Arrow. It requires a touch attack and yet still allows a reflex save. The save DC is in no way increased by the effects of the touch attack.

Finally, if you allowed the Fireball touch attack idea, what about when you roll a 20? Can you critical for 20d6 by hitting the guy in the groin?

 

[Kai Lord]

That may not be too bad, but it adds yet another method for wizards to increase their save DCs.

Note that for a rules scenario that involves this general idea we have Flame Arrow. It requires a touch attack and yet still allows a reflex save. The save DC is in no way increased by the effects of the touch attack.

Finally, if you allowed the Fireball touch attack idea, what about when you roll a 20? Can you critical for 20d6 by hitting the guy in the groin?

That's why I only toyed with the idea. As it stands I would just let the result of the saving throw itself determine whether or not someone actually got hit. You failed and took full damage? Maybe the wizard drilled you with it in the chest. Made the save with flying colors? The wizard couldn't guestimate where you'd end up.

An Imbued Arrow actually does hit somebody in some form on a successful attack, which is what begged the original question.

 

[James McMurray]

In that case I would have to go back to the Flame Arrow example. They also hit, and still allow reflex saves.

 

[Kai Lord]

In that case I would have to go back to the Flame Arrow example. They also hit, and still allow reflex saves.

That's a good example, and one I expect most people to emulate. However, I would allow an Arcane Archer who struck someone with an Imbued Arrow to cause the full damage of the spell without a save. Why?

Because it makes sense, and stretching combat ambiguity just so that EVERY FREAKING ENCOUNTER is one big stalemate between equal leveled opponents is, IMO, lame. I like the Rock/Paper/Scissors element of a lot of D&D. And we're talking about one class ability of one Prestige Class, and he still has to roll to hit! Besides, how many Reflex spells are instakills anyway? A high level Deepwood Sniper can easily do the same amount of damage to a single target as a Fireball.

If the AA is firing arrows imbued with any kind of respectable area-effect spell, then he had to burn a fair number of levels in wizard or sorcerer, drastically reducing his archery effectiveness. And if he's burning Quickened Truestrikes to connect with his Imbued Arrows, then he sure isn't using his spell slots efficiently.

Bottom line, I think its a cool trick, it isn't remotely unbalancing, so in my games, the AA could do it.