D&D 5E Is the Cleric really one of the ‘core four’ anymore?

[Sacrosanct]

Bram Stoker's Van Helsing just screamed "cleric" to me as well. So along with the already mentioned references, I think there are plenty of inspirational examples we can point to for the class.

 

[SirAntoine]

You know, the Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and Magic User should be called "the original four" or "the basic four"

It's fairly common and quite easy to form a very effective party without any of these classes.

It depends what the adventure is, and what the game books are encouraging. Any adventure could be tailored to the characters, deleting traps for example, but I am shocked and very disappointed with the way the new edition has redone the thief. They have changed one of the basic approaches to the game, and effectively altered its tone. It's much too light for my preference. It would be one thing if they meant to encourage everyone to negotiate traps with 10' poles and their imagination, but I know from experience that is difficult. It is much harder than you might think to know how a trap would work, or how to disarm it. The thief was given his find/remove traps ability for this reason, and that was his knowledge base. Sometimes a player would ask me how a trap worked, and say his thief should know, and I would try to envision it but that is very hard.

 

[Ashrym]

It depends what the adventure is, and what the game books are encouraging. Any adventure could be tailored to the characters, deleting traps for example, but I am shocked and very disappointed with the way the new edition has redone the thief. They have changed one of the basic approaches to the game, and effectively altered its tone. It's much too light for my preference. It would be one thing if they meant to encourage everyone to negotiate traps with 10' poles and their imagination, but I know from experience that is difficult. It is much harder than you might think to know how a trap would work, or how to disarm it. The thief was given his find/remove traps ability for this reason, and that was his knowledge base. Sometimes a player would ask me how a trap worked, and say his thief should know, and I would try to envision it but that is very hard.

Rogues (and the thief subclass) are definitely skill oriented, always have proficiency in thieves' tools whereas other classes are required to learn it but may not have it, and are still the only class that can have expertise in thieves' tools. The class is still the best at disabling traps and has that flavor. Rogues just aren't required because reasonable alternatives are available.

 

[SirAntoine]

Rogues (and the thief subclass) are definitely skill oriented, always have proficiency in thieves' tools whereas other classes are required to learn it but may not have it, and are still the only class that can have expertise in thieves' tools. The class is still the best at disabling traps and has that flavor. Rogues just aren't required because reasonable alternatives are available.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't think anyone without prior experience with earlier editions would even have their rogue try to find and disarm traps. The PHB barely even mentions traps. It's pathetic.

Rogues are not required. They are a core class with indispenseable skills.

 

[Ashrym]

I couldn't disagree more. I don't think anyone without prior experience with earlier editions would even have their rogue try to find and disarm traps. The PHB barely even mentions traps. It's pathetic.

It's listed under skills and precision for the rogue class and again under thief and arcane trickster because both have additional benefits. It's also listed under the tools description if any player chooses to look up what he or she might be proficient in. Traps are listed under multiple additional class abilities and at least one feat. Traps are listed under dexterity checks. Traps are listed in the marching order information to see who might be impacted. There is a spell dedicated to helping with traps.

I am sure there are more I missed on a quick glance, but a quick glance in the 2e PHB doesn't do more than mention the skill under thief with some adjustment charts and occasional activity text elsewhere.

I think anyone who isn't familiar with the game might need to learn the characters. In 5e, this is done in the apprentice levels. I don't think someone starting a thief in prior editions would be anymore or less likely to attempt to use the ability.

 

[SirAntoine]

It's listed under skills and precision for the rogue class and again under thief and arcane trickster because both have additional benefits. It's also listed under the tools description if any player chooses to look up what he or she might be proficient in. Traps are listed under multiple additional class abilities and at least one feat. Traps are listed under dexterity checks. Traps are listed in the marching order information to see who might be impacted. There is a spell dedicated to helping with traps.

I am sure there are more I missed on a quick glance, but a quick glance in the 2e PHB doesn't do more than mention the skill under thief with some adjustment charts and occasional activity text elsewhere.

I think anyone who isn't familiar with the game might need to learn the characters. In 5e, this is done in the apprentice levels. I don't think someone starting a thief in prior editions would be anymore or less likely to attempt to use the ability.

You might want to re-examine what you've read. Start with the index of the 5e PHB, like I did.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I regard Rogues as being an important Class simply on the grounds that a) they are a massively referenced archetype in fantasy literature and movies, and b) they are one of the few Classes that is not reliant on magic, to the degree that you can actually play an everyman hero.

Remove the Rogue, and the capacity to tell stories like those you find in classic fantasy tales becomes diminished.

 

[SirAntoine]

I regard Rogues as being an important Class simply on the grounds that a) they are a massively referenced archetype in fantasy literature and movies, and b) they are one of the few Classes that is not reliant on magic, to the degree that you can actually play an everyman hero.

Remove the Rogue, and the capacity to tell stories like those you find in classic fantasy tales becomes diminished.

In contrast, the cleric is unique to D&D. You can't get any more core than that.

 

[TrippyHippy]

In contrast, the cleric is unique to D&D. You can't get any more core than that.

And that leads back to my original question: should it be?

 

[Ashrym]

You might want to re-examine what you've read. Start with the index of the 5e PHB, like I did.

I didn't limit myself to the index. I read the PHB.