Is the Feeblemind spell fair?

[Ridley's Cohort]

What about spells in bonus slots that only exist due to ability score?

Yeah? You cannot cast a spell that violates the "spells per day" as defined by the spellcasting class limits modified by spellcasting stat.

You can either (1) accept that a Wizard might have more prepped spells than he can legally cast in a given day (at the moment at least) under certain conditions, or (2) make up house rules out of whole cloth to force whatever "correct" model you think would be better than the RAW.

I do not see any downside to #1 under normal play conditions. We will never get a consensus for #2, if you care about such things.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Prepared spells are prepared spells. There are very few ways to lose prepared spells -- level drain, death, spellthief, any others? A reduced spellcasting stat is not one of them under the RAW.

How about: "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly." Is a bonus spell slot an "attribute"?

And I don't think you can so definitively state that a reduced spellcasting stat is not a method to lose spell slots. The rules only say "certain other events."

You can either (1) accept that a Wizard might have more prepped spells than he can legally cast in a given day (at the moment at least) under certain conditions...

Well, the moment could be a long time...until the spell slot is used. Imagine the master letting his apprentice borrow that +6 ability modifying magical item and then after resting for a day, taking it back. The bonus spell slots are still there, according to you, right?

 

[KarinsDad]

How about: "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly." Is a bonus spell slot an "attribute"?

And I don't think you can so definitively state that a reduced spellcasting stat is not a method to lose spell slots. The rules only say "certain other events."

How about Constitution loses?

If CON goes down to one and is then restored to its former level, do you get back all of the hit points, or just some of them?

Example:

4th level Fred has 32 hit points and a CON of 12. He drops to 1 CON, so his hit points drop to 8. When restored, does he have 8 hits out of 32 or 32 out of 32?


Doesn't the following sentence work both ways (i.e. changes due to loss or to gain)?

When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly.

If you lose a bonus spell when ability damaged, wouldn't you gain it back when no longer damaged? Just like bonus hit points?

Once you’ve cast a prepared spell, you can’t cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you’ve prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit.

This rule does not apply since the spell is not cast.

A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level.

This rule does not apply since the character was not dead. But, this rule does indicate that spells are not lost merely due to dying (a state arguably worse than Feebleminded). How much Intelligence does a dead character have?


So, we have two rules when spells are definitively lost: either by casting or by dying and being raised. Are there other such rules?

We also have a rule that changes to ability scores change attributes which theoretically should work the same in both directions.


It seems there is no RAW support for losing the spell slots after the ability score is restored, but some slight RAW support for regaining them. Other related rules?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, the moment could be a long time...until the spell slot is used. Imagine the master letting his apprentice borrow that +6 ability modifying magical item and then after resting for a day, taking it back. The bonus spell slots are still there, according to you, right?

By an extremely literal reading of the RAW, yes. Even this absolutely worst case scenario is not so outlandish that it is necessarily creates any real problem.

The logical alternatives create more bookkeeping and many fussy corner cases. I do not see why that would be an improvement in any practical way, except to appease a fairly arbitrary aesthetic applied to very abstract rules.

 

[frankthedm]

The logical alternatives create more bookkeeping and many fussy corner cases. I do not see why that would be an improvement in any practical way, except to appease a fairly arbitrary aesthetic applied to very abstract rules.

I say:
Lose a semi permanent stat bonus, lose 1 bonus prepped Spell/Slot as gained from the previous stat. Gain the bonus back, regain the bonus Spell / Slot when you prepare next.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And how does this work for Sorcerors? Divine spontaneous casters?

It is not a bad ruling, franthedm. Not in the least. But we are creating new special rules and corner case exceptions when we really do not have to.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If CON goes down to one and is then restored to its former level, do you get back all of the hit points, or just some of them?

All of them, of course. But, this is a Strawman because you know as well as I do that the rules are EXPLICIT on Con changes. They are not so explicit on spellcasting ability modifiers.

Find a similar rule of "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly." and it would be an open and shut case.

But, there's no such rule.

Doesn't the following sentence work both ways (i.e. changes due to loss or to gain)?

Sure. Why can't it work on the spell slot, though, not the spell? You lose a spell slot, then you regain it. Casters who prepared spells are somewhat screwed while those who don't are not. I might even consider allowing the slot as an open slot for preparation casters because the spell wasn't actually cast and it was "rested for".

If you lose a bonus spell when ability damaged, wouldn't you gain it back when no longer damaged? Just like bonus hit points?

If it were just like hit points, you would be able use those hit point slots for something.

By an extremely literal reading of the RAW, yes. Even this absolutely worst case scenario is not so outlandish that it is necessarily creates any real problem.

It can create a problem. Consider a caster with 3 slots of his highest level spell still in memory. (For this example, they need to be prepared.) His stat drops and technically he's only allowed 2, but he doesn't use the spells and keeps them. The next day while preparing, what can he prepare at his highest level spell slots? Can he change at one spell? Two? All three? If he tries to change out one, does it suddenly go poof?

That's a really tricky scenario that is easily avoided using (e.g.) Frank's rule or even the one I offer above (turned into open slots upon regaining the ability score).

 

[Christian]

It can create a problem. Consider a caster with 3 slots of his highest level spell still in memory. (For this example, they need to be prepared.) His stat drops and technically he's only allowed 2, but he doesn't use the spells and keeps them. The next day while preparing, what can he prepare at his highest level spell slots? Can he change at one spell? Two? All three? If he tries to change out one, does it suddenly go poof?

That's a really tricky scenario that is easily avoided using (e.g.) Frank's rule or even the one I offer above (turned into open slots upon regaining the ability score).

Kinda sucks for the shapeshifting (PHB2) druid with a Periapt of Wisdom, though ...

 

[KarinsDad]

Sure. Why can't it work on the spell slot, though, not the spell? You lose a spell slot, then you regain it. Casters who prepared spells are somewhat screwed while those who don't are not. I might even consider allowing the slot as an open slot for preparation casters because the spell wasn't actually cast and it was "rested for".

But the question becomes, why would a DM rule that it is similar to casting the spell (or not preparing the spell) when even Death itself does not necessarily lose prepared spells?

That appears to be a dicotomy which the "you just gain them back like you gain all other ability related attributes" does not have.

It can create a problem. Consider a caster with 3 slots of his highest level spell still in memory. (For this example, they need to be prepared.) His stat drops and technically he's only allowed 2, but he doesn't use the spells and keeps them. The next day while preparing, what can he prepare at his highest level spell slots? Can he change at one spell? Two? All three? If he tries to change out one, does it suddenly go poof?

That's a really tricky scenario that is easily avoided using (e.g.) Frank's rule or even the one I offer above (turned into open slots upon regaining the ability score).

Like you said to me, this is a strawman.

If you still have the prepared spell but just do not have access to it, that means that you cannot modify it.

So, if the caster has two spell slots available, he can do whatever he wants with those two slots just like always. The third slot with the prepared spell still in it is unavailable.

No problem at all.

And, this follows RAW closer. If you do not cast a spell, you do not lose the preparation of it. In this case, you would just lose access to it.


Either interpretation is fine, it's just that my proposed interpretation is closer to RAW in that spell preparation is only truly lost if the character casts the spell (or dies). Not if some condition just temporarily prevents him from accessing the spell.

Plus, I do not know of a rule that takes away spells (outside of casting or death). But, there is a rule that ability score changes result in attributes changing accordingly. Your interpretation (somewhat arbitrarily) states that this rule applies for everything except spells (or spell slots).

 

[Vanye]

Fair? Maybe, maybe not. But really I think of it more of a "ruin-a-player's-fun" spell. In our group, it's become one of those D&D nuklear weapons WotC talked about a while back. Nobody wants to touch it.

I'd rather have my mage outright killed than hit with a feeblemind.

I had a 2nd ed 1/2 mage-thief get hit wth the spell, when fighting an ilithilich. She spent the entire fight cooing to her self like a baby, and bouncing a rock off a tree. i got bonus xp for the GM that game for roleplaying. *lol*