Lame Prestige Classes

[Crothian]

I dislike PRCs too. Most of them can be well represented by core classes (frenzied beserker is essentially a barbarian) or with 1 or 2 new feats added to a core class (such as in the case of the assassin, death attack is a feat in my games and hide in plain sight is a rogue special ability). That said I can see the use of PRCs in a very limited number of circumstances.
Unfortunatley those of us to dislike PRCs seem to take alot of flak for it.

the problem with turning it into feat chains is characters get a feat every third level where class abilities are gained every level. So, the prestige class turned into feats can take 3 times as long to complete.

 

[Andor]

To play the devil's advocate here, couldn't you make joining an organization a prerequisite to pick up the start of the feat chain? I would make it a prereq and let the GM decide when the PC had fulfilled that requirement. That's where the roleplaying would come in.

Sure you could, indeed there is precedence in the Eberron druid sect feats. None the less I think there is more 'oomph' to a Prc than a feat chain when it comes to giving meat to an organization.

The three other things Prcs do well that feats do not is when a class gives up general power for strengh in a specific area (Hunter of the Dead, Master of many forms) or when it moves into a new area of power/interest (Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, Fist of Zukoden) and lastly transformative Prcs (Ooze Master, Dragon Disciple).

 

[DaveMage]

Well, my whole intent in the "feat chain" idea is to reduce the number of prestige classes.

Those who are pro-prestige classes have made some good points, and I can see the validity in keeping some of them.

However, I'd love to see the "simple" prestige classes eliminated. For example, Prestige Classes like the archmage, which only get "High Arcana" at every level, could really be replaced with a feat.

 

[Insight]

For the record (not that anyone necessarily cares what I think), Prestige Classes are the way to go in standard D&D. It's just not feasible to do it all with feat chains due to the simple 1:3 feats/level ratio. In order to make feat chains work, characters need to gain feats more often. You have to do that in conjunction with getting rid of class abilities.

If you guys want to see an excellent representation of class abilities broken down into feat chains, check out Grim Tales or Iron Heroes. I have worked on neither, so this can't be considered a plug (so there!)

 

[Crothian]

However, I'd love to see the "simple" prestige classes eliminated. For example, Prestige Classes like the archmage, which only get "High Arcana" at every level, could really be replaced with a feat.

That's easily done in ones own campaign. Heck, true 20 basically does that since it doesn't use prestige classes.

 

[Psion]

What Crothian and Inight speak of gets back to what I brought up earlier with Blue Rose and Grim Tales. These books are designed to give you variety via feats and talent tree selections by providing you with those choices at every level; those games can get by with less PrC support. But again, those games require more player (or DM) investment in terms of player (or DM) design decisions if you want to make something unique.

 

[DaveMage]

That's easily done in ones own campaign.

True.

But all of the changes I've suggested would be for a new edition, and the goal of which (for me) is the reduction of the number of prestige classes if feats would suffice.

You'd certainly have to re-do how many feats are granted, as one-per-three levels would clearly not be sufficient for what I proposed.

 

[Crothian]

True.

But all of the changes I've suggested would be for a new edition, and the goal of which (for me) is the reduction of the number of prestige classes if feats would suffice.

You'd certainly have to re-do how many feats are granted, as one-per-three levels would clearly not be sufficient for what I proposed.

To reduce the number of feats and classes, you just stop buying the books. Or just buy the books with out them, or just cross them out in the books you buy.

But I perfer there being too many. It is easier for me as a DM to say no to things in print then to not have enough and have to create what is missing.

 

[Insight]

To reduce the number of feats and classes, you just stop buying the books. Or just buy the books with out them, or just cross them out in the books you buy.

But I perfer there being too many. It is easier for me as a DM to say no to things in print then to not have enough and have to create what is missing.

If I were starting a new D&D campaign, I would specifically go through each and every D&D-related / D20 book I owned or that the group intended to use and create a list for people to use. I would also go out of my way to create ways to fit the more prominent ones into the campaign world. I would definitely disallow anything that didn't fit in, which could include Prestige Classes out of the DMG or elsewhere. For me, flavor is more important that balance, although a sickeningly unbalanced PrC would be right out, even if it fit the campaign setting beautifully.

 

[DaveMage]

To reduce the number of feats and classes, you just stop buying the books. Or just buy the books with out them, or just cross them out in the books you buy.

But I perfer there being too many. It is easier for me as a DM to say no to things in print then to not have enough and have to create what is missing.

I like to be well-versed in the classes of the game, (as I was in 1E and 2E) and it has annoyed me that there are so many classes that I'm not as experienced with.

I want to experience it all and I know I won't be able to - that's the basis of my frustration. I can't wrap my brain around all of the possible classes to really figure out what combo or combos would give me the greatest satisfaction from playing the game.