Let's Talk About Metacurrency

[Micah Sweet]

But is that desirable in a game where combat is the main mode of play? I'd argue not, based on experience with lots of different systems. Death spirals by way wound penalties and similar almost never improve the experience or create the kind of play folks imagine they will, in my experience.

It is desirable to me, as GM or Player, because the alternative makes zero sense to me. If you're concerned about getting hurt and having your injuries hinder you (totally fair), there are steps you can take to mitigate that, including avoiding unnecessary fights and being careful.

Just like real life. The PCs are talented people, not superheroes in my game (unless I'm playing a supers game, which I noted as a specific exception) and not main characters in a story.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I didn't say it was a "problem".

I said that it was a self-limitimg position, from the perspective of discussion in the thread.




The position is still pretty solidly limited.
"Should I serve pizza? What kind of pizza?"
"I don't eat pizza."
"Okay then."

The question the OP asked allows for a negative answer. Me and others provided one. I don't understand why this is a problem for you.

 

[TwoSix]

I look at it like Raiders of the Lost Ark:

Indy gets punched, kicked, shot in the arm, thrown through a windshield, dragged underneath and behind a truck, then gets a few kisses from Marion and a good night’s sleep, and is ready to fight Nazis again.

Sure, you can narrate it that way, I have no problem with that.

I generally have no problem with hit points while they stay above 0 (in D&D terms), and using them as a general indicator of fighting readiness and endurance, with hit point "damage" being exertion, minor trauma, and cuts and bruises.

It's the intersection between combat being able to kill a character through hit point loss, and what happens when a character is actually unable to continue a fight (which suggests some kind of major injury) where I find some narrative muddle.

Basically, how do you narrate a character getting taken out of a fight (brought down to 0 HP and below) in any edition of D&D (plus other D&D-adjacent medieval fantasy games) using action movie narration, such that the other characters in the party should be acting like the character is at grave risk of dying in the next few moments (as the death and dying rules require)?

 

[Micah Sweet]

(NOTE: the following little rant is not really focused at Micah; Im just using the quote as a jumping off point)

The funny thing about "realism" in D&D is that it never seems to come in the form of PCs behaving like human beings. Characters Penny pinch at the inn despite having just come in from weeks in the wild under constant threat. Characters don't find solace in one another's arms despite it being a terrible idea,like folks under real constant stress often do. They don't break under pressure or betray their principles for a little respite from the terrors of adventuring.

But, sure, let's add twisted ankles to the crit chart.

Those things absolutely should happen a lot more, and I encourage them in my games. I have pretty good players who care that things in the fiction make logical sense, so most of the time the above concerns are less of a problem at my table.

The damage and healing stuff is a problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is that an issue of damage, or an issue that when asked to describe something, the default is to go with that which is outwardly visible?

The best compromise I've been able to make is to have nothing really hit you solidly until you run out of HP and fall down, but have that really matter, with long term or even permanent injury potentially result from it even if you get back up.

 

[TwoSix]

(NOTE: the following little rant is not really focused at Micah; Im just using the quote as a jumping off point)

The funny thing about "realism" in D&D is that it never seems to come in the form of PCs behaving like human beings. Characters Penny pinch at the inn despite having just come in from weeks in the wild under constant threat. Characters don't find solace in one another's arms despite it being a terrible idea,like folks under real constant stress often do. They don't break under pressure or betray their principles for a little respite from the terrors of adventuring.

But, sure, let's add twisted ankles to the crit chart.

I certainly wouldn't be adverse to D&D adding those concepts into its gameplay. Off the top of my head, Daggerheart nods to the trauma of the adventuring life with its "scars" system, where being taken out during combat lowers your maximum Hope, and a character at 0 Hope is retired.

And the NSR game His Majesty the Wurm has a very nice section on PC bonds, and how they are invoked to refresh the characters during the Camping and Downtime phases. (And His Majesty the Wurm has a lot of "sim" and "blorb" principles the gameplay is oriented around, for those who crave more prepped world realism.)

 

[Artamo]

Sure, you can narrate it that way, I have no problem with that.

I generally have no problem with hit points while they stay above 0 (in D&D terms), and using them as a general indicator of fighting readiness and endurance, with hit point "damage" being exertion, minor trauma, and cuts and bruises.

It's the intersection between combat being able to kill a character through hit point loss, and what happens when a character is actually unable to continue a fight (which suggests some kind of major injury) where I find some narrative muddle.

Basically, how do you narrate a character getting taken out of a fight (brought down to 0 HP and below) in any edition of D&D (plus other D&D-adjacent medieval fantasy games) using action movie narration, such that the other characters in the party should be acting like the character is at grave risk of dying in the next few moments (as the death and dying rules require)?

I find it takes care of itself in a meta way. Just last night we were playing a game with a tough fight, and everyone started to get very hyper aware of where everyone’s HP total was at, before they hit zero. A few PCs hit zero, including mine, and we all felt the stress. If I were self narrating it, my character was knocked out of the fight momentarily, grappled and being crushed, gasping for breath. Once I escaped, I had to take a moment to recover before taking another swing - even though I was back in the fight, I was nowhere near full hit points. I was still at risk.

 

[Umbran]

The question the OP asked allows for a negative answer. Me and others provided one. I don't understand why this is a problem for you.

Apparently, I need to repeat myself.
I didn't say there was any "problem".

 

[TwoSix]

The best compromise I've been able to make is to have nothing really hit you solidly until you run out of HP and fall down, but have that really matter, with long term or even permanent injury potentially result from it even if you get back up.

I would agree with this. I think adding longer-term consequences to being knocked out of combat has some solidly positive effects on gameplay, for both gamist and sim priorities.

It encourages proactive healing and defensive measures, which adds more optionality and texture to combat, and adds a loss condition that isn't as severe and game-altering as "your character is dead".

 

[Umbran]

The best compromise I've been able to make is to have nothing really hit you solidly until you run out of HP and fall down, but have that really matter, with long term or even permanent injury potentially result from it even if you get back up.

Sure.

Doesn't answer the question, though.
The question is whether requests to narrate and describe will skew to those things which are easily physically observable, and what impact that has on our views of the mechanic and interpreting rules.

To wit: if we are biased in what we choose to narrate, we should take extra care about how we feed that back into our interpretation of mechanics.