Let's Talk About Metacurrency

[mamba]

I'm really not sure why you're choosing this hill to die on. That the dunedain were far superior to normal humans is an established fact. This isn't interpretation.

I am not dying on this hill, it is a complete sidetrack that has nothing to do with what I am arguing about

No one says that in the olden days those guys were not better than the average human, but Aragorn in Lord of the Rings does not really do anything the average human could not do, all that matters is that he is the rightful king, and even that still is a complete sidetrack with zero relevance to where this started. So I am going to shut up because this all just derails things

 

[Lanefan]

I say this with some comfort in my assessment, but admitting I can't prove it: while perhaps not viewing the hobby as a whole, I think your position is significanly more common in the gaming populace than Micah's. It may well have been the inverse when I entered the hobby where a simulationist streak was significantly more visible.

Chicken and egg situation, though: did the community move away from sim and WotC's design follow, or did the 4e-5e designers move the game away from sim and the community follow?

I very much suspect it's the latter, perhaps as an over-reaction to 3e which tried hard for sim and in many ways bungled it.

 

[Retros_x]

That's pretty much the opposite of what I want. Narrative intrusion is antithetical to my playstyle.

So no Inspiration, Luck tokens etc in your game? Because they count for that IMO. Its nothing coming from the character and in-universe narrative. The player got it as reward for good RP, cool idea etc., not the character. And they use it as a "divine intervention" from the meta/player layer to change the result of a dice.

I personally like meta currencies and agree with @Bill Zebub , they should stay in the meta layer. I personally have no problem with meta-gaming in general, the fear of it is absurd, because every player decision is always at least partly influenced by the meta. Meta-currencies just enable more decisions in that layer, but they should stay in that layer ideally. Although I don't have that much of a problem with x per day player resources. Waiting to use resources until for example a big fight happens is quite normal for all resources, not just meta-ones. Thats just normal player decision making.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The problem has been these always treated a normal hit as enough to deliver poison. As such you pretty much have to assume some damage.

That is IMO only a problem because that's how people handle poison so far. We can change that. Poisons only have an effect when you're taking an injury from the attack with a poisoned weapon. YOu could be very "generous" (for the poison user) to say it works once the person is injured/bloodied, bcause there is an open wound and it can be more easily affected, even if it is otherwise somethnig that wouldn't cause harm. A bit less but still generous could be to say that poison deals extra damage (but only damage) because the weapon with a poison is simply more threatening (same way that some weapons have a higher damage value by the virtue of being bigger) and thus takes more effort to evade.

 

[billd91]

I am not missing the point, I am saying it is entirely irrelevant to the original argument. This is nothing but a distraction because I chose Middle-earth as my stand-in for a low magic setting

On top of that I do not see any of those guys do anything special anyway, so I am not even sure why their heritage is supposed to be a counterargument

It's not really a good counterargument because, while the characters of the Fellowship are all of some social significance, it doesn't really do much for them in the course of the story for any of them other than Gandalf and Aragorn. Gandalf because he's a powerful entity and Aragorn because he holds a number of debts owed to his line.

The REAL thing their social stature brings them in practical terms is ACCESS. They are, in the terms of Aaron Burr in Hamilton, in the room where it happens. They have access to the Last Homely House, some even to the Council of Elrond where momentous decisions are made. As a child, Aragorn had access to Imladris and was fostered there because of his lineage and that sets up so much more such as his skills at fighting, skills at healing, skills at overall adventuring, and his moral outlook. He has access to the best education and under the best influence available in Middle Earth - and he will make use of pretty much all of it.

Other than that, their social position generally gives them RESPONSIBILITY. They need to do something about the crisis before them all. They're obligated to do so by their social position, but that doesn't mean they have the strength to succeed. People in their positions have failed so far in getting Middle Earth to where it is at the time of the story. The kings of Númenor failed despite their supposed superiority. The Kingdom of Arnor failed despite their supposed superiority. The Kingdom of Gondor is failing despite their supposed superiority. Isildur failed to resist the Ring. Sméagol failed to resist the ring despite being the descendent of a matriarch. Aragorn succeeds not simply because his social position gives him right (which, in turn, gives him some might), but because he ultimately makes better decisions at doing the right thing, no matter the burden.

 

[Umbran]

wouldn’t all dwarves trace back to the first dwarf

No, because Aulë created seven Fathers of the Dwarves.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So no Inspiration, Luck tokens etc in your game? Because they count for that IMO. Its nothing coming from the character and in-universe narrative. The player got it as reward for good RP, cool idea etc., not the character. And they use it as a "divine intervention" from the meta/player layer to change the result of a dice.

I personally like meta currencies and agree with @Bill Zebub , they should stay in the meta layer. I personally have no problem with meta-gaming in general, the fear of it is absurd, because every player decision is always at least partly influenced by the meta. Meta-currencies just enable more decisions in that layer, but they should stay in that layer ideally. Although I don't have that much of a problem with x per day player resources. Waiting to use resources until for example a big fight happens is quite normal for all resources, not just meta-ones. Thats just normal player decision making.

I don't use luck as a mechanic. I do use inspiration, because my players like it.

And not liking something is not the same as fearing it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Chicken and egg situation, though: did the community move away from sim and WotC's design follow, or did the 4e-5e designers move the game away from sim and the community follow?

I very much suspect it's the latter, perhaps as an over-reaction to 3e which tried hard for sim and in many ways bungled it.

i saw the hobby as a whole moving away from sim well before the 3e era. I won't speak of D&D specifically here because I wasn't involved in the period of the two AD&Ds much, but D&D lived in less of a vacuum disconnected from the rest of the hobby in the 80's and 90's than it does now, if anything.