Magic missle question

[Destil]

But...this is a PC feat - not a monster feat, right? I mean it still comes down to if the stat card for the monster doesn't have it, then they don't have it. Not counting the Almighty House Ruled stuff from your local friendly DM.

Monsters don't use feats in 4E.

Honestly, dude, I'd let this one drop. Your DM has far worse issues from everything you've posted on these boards. You're wasting your effort until he tries to pull it with somehting like a beholder in the future.

Bending the monster rules (not breaking them) isn't a bad thing at all. I do it all the time, and I don't think I'd put up with a player who felt I was wrong for doing so...

 

[Mirtek]

But...this is a PC feat - not a monster feat, right? I mean it still comes down to if the stat card for the monster doesn't have it, then they don't have it.

Note that a monster wouldn't need it. As has been said in this thread, in 4e monsters are not bound by the same rules as players.

So if there's a monster with MM listed as a melee basic attack in it's statblock, then that's it. No need for any feat.

While the monster in question wasn't written this way, a different monster could be.

 

[Jhaelen]

Bending the monster rules (not breaking them) isn't a bad thing at all. I do it all the time, and I don't think I'd put up with a player who felt I was wrong for doing so...

Indeed. A player asking me to send him the monster stat blocks I used to verify I did everything by the book would get the boot and should feel free to gather his own group of players and try DMing.

 

[Benlo]

Indeed. A player asking me to send him the monster stat blocks I used to verify I did everything by the book would get the boot and should feel free to gather his own group of players and try DMing.

I don't know if I myself would outright no longer play with them, but I would be a little offended as the DM. I prescribe to the belief that there remains a boundary between the players and the DM, and that it's rude to demand to see the DM's dice rolls, etc. It implies a lack of trust.

I don't think the OP is going that far in this case, seemingly being more concerned with the rules, rather than the DM breaking them (I freely admit monsters I build would not work as PCs, nor should they in most instances). In your scenario, though, I would be put off.

Only time I think this sort of thing would generate anger on my part is a story that I can't remember if I read here or at the Wizards board, to where a player had the audacity to, in the middle of a play session, pull out a Monster Manual and attempt to locate the stats for the monster they were fighting, announcing his findings to his teammates. That is unacceptable behavior, and in addition to being bad form, I imagine it made the players wait on him, so in addition to being rude and metagaming blatantly, he's also holding up gameplay.

 

[Turtlejay]

There is a certain amount of player entitlement to deal with here. I think DM's should feel no pressure to stick to the stats on the page. While the debate rages here and on General about Fudging die, a valid point can also be made for fudging *anything*. DM's shouldn't have to explain themselves to a player in situations like this (gross abuse of the rules, or other things that can be more relegated to social problems, sure). 4e's PC/NPC division goes a very long way towards fixing this, but there will always be some lingering entitlement to deal with.

In short, OP, the DM does what he wants, and likely does so in an attempt to make your experience better. Little things like this are not really worth the worry put into them. Relax and enjoy the game.

Jay

 

[Mengu]

I don't understand all this need to white knight for the DM. He used a basic ranged attack where he should have used a basic melee attack. It probably was a mistake. After the game, you double check the rule, point it out, he is aware for the future, and you move on. It's perfectly normal for a DM to make mistakes (newer the DM/game system, higher the odds). I see nothing wrong with an after game rules discussion about how a certain mechanic is supposed to work.

Sometimes days after a session, I realize we played something incorrectly (me or someone else may have been running at the time, doesn't matter), I send out a quick email to our other DM's/rules gurus so we don't miss it next time. No big deal. It's not purposeful berating of a DM's ability to run a game, when you're just pointing out a rule.

 

[Benlo]

I don't understand all this need to white knight for the DM. He used a basic ranged attack where he should have used a basic melee attack. It probably was a mistake. After the game, you double check the rule, point it out, he is aware for the future, and you move on. It's perfectly normal for a DM to make mistakes (newer the DM/game system, higher the odds). I see nothing wrong with an after game rules discussion about how a certain mechanic is supposed to work.

Sometimes days after a session, I realize we played something incorrectly (me or someone else may have been running at the time, doesn't matter), I send out a quick email to our other DM's/rules gurus so we don't miss it next time. No big deal. It's not purposeful berating of a DM's ability to run a game, when you're just pointing out a rule.

This is a good approach. Not something to bring up during the game session itself, more something to think about to bring up with them later on.

 

[DracoSuave]

However, one thing to pay attention to.

Generally, a monster with magic missle is artillery. Which means that players -expect- to be able to melee it with impunity.

Changing its magic missile so that it can be used at close range is taking the monster out of its role. It's no longer strictly artillery at that point, and this sort of thing should not be done often-- It's doing high damage with a melee attack, which is normally a lurker or brute thing, but without having to hide and wait to score it like a lurker, and without the lower attack bonus of a brute, you've got a different animal.


It's not a bad thing, mind you, but this is the sort of country you should save for elites and special monsters.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

I don't understand all this need to white knight for the DM. He used a basic ranged attack where he should have used a basic melee attack. It probably was a mistake. After the game, you double check the rule, point it out, he is aware for the future, and you move on. It's perfectly normal for a DM to make mistakes (newer the DM/game system, higher the odds). I see nothing wrong with an after game rules discussion about how a certain mechanic is supposed to work.

Sometimes days after a session, I realize we played something incorrectly (me or someone else may have been running at the time, doesn't matter), I send out a quick email to our other DM's/rules gurus so we don't miss it next time. No big deal. It's not purposeful berating of a DM's ability to run a game, when you're just pointing out a rule.

Thank you, that pretty well sums up what happened.

A player went to manuever around the Wizard and the DM said he gets an OA and was using MM. I asked at this point how he was doing that since MM is ranged. The DM said it was marked on the Stat card for a Basic attack, therefore he could use MM for that. This is where the ->honest<- mistake was made - the DM mistook the Ranged Basic Attack symbol for the Melee Basic Attack symbol. Please note that we did not stop the game, a "running" discussion on it took place over maybe 3-4 mins while the game progressed. The player decided not to make that move in the end. After the session, in our e-mail list it was discussed and I politely asked if I could see the stat card for that Wizard. The DM just gave me the name and I looked it up. I, and a couple of others (again politely) pointed out that the symbol interpretation was erroneous. Problem solved, and it shouldn't happen again in the future, hopefully.

When I posted the message, I was just trying to get verification on whether we (the players) were right or not.

Oh BTW, as far as a few rule changes for the monsters go, the DM added this little jewel to the Wizards (remember, there were 6 of them!!!) Magic Missle - it also pushed the hit target back 4 squares.

Our SwordMage was actually out of most of the fight because he kept getting jammed back into a corner. He finally used some of his teleport powers to get back in the fray. He wasn't too amused....but it was funny for the rest of us.

 

[DracoSuave]

Oh BTW, as far as a few rule changes for the monsters go, the DM added this little jewel to the Wizards (remember, there were 6 of them!!!) Magic Missle - it also pushed the hit target back 4 squares.

That makes it a controller monster which means it should have less hitpoints and less damage for its attacks.

Roles exist for monsters for a reason, and it's a part of balancing them out.