D&D General Magitech and Science Fantasy are Fundamental to D&D

[Ruin Explorer]

Spinning off the Revel's End/Prisoner 13 thread because I don't want to thread jack that one.

D&D has always embraced what we would call "magitech" and science fantasy. The pulp authors that dominate Appendix N did not make the same kinds of genre distinctions that became more common in publishing later on. The line between magic and science and fantasy and future were much fuzzier (see: Vancian).

Long before Eberron, D&D depicted nations that codified magic into science analogs. Long before 3E's "sheens" robots and layers made appearances in D&D. "Lovecraftian cosmic horror" IS science fiction.

What are your favorite blurring of lines between sci-fi and fantasy in D&D? What kinds of science fantasy have you embraced in your games and campaigns? Where do you think D&D needs MORE science fantasy?

I think being coherent (tonally, aesthetically, and in terms of world-building) and making a world that makes some sense is what's important, personally. All the most powerful and memorable worlds are, and they tend to lose something when they deviate from that (as they often eventually do, over time).

That can be heavy magitech (Eberron, World of Warcraft, etc.) or near-zero magitech (Tolkien, Birthright, etc.).

Obviously not everyone agrees about coherency - otherwise Mystara wouldn't exist

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think being coherent (tonally, aesthetically, and in terms of world-building) and making a world that makes some sense is what's important, personally. All the most powerful and memorable worlds are, and they tend to lose something when they deviate from that (as they often eventually do, over time).

That can be heavy magitech (Eberron, World of Warcraft, etc.) or near-zero magitech (Tolkien, Birthright, etc.).

Obviously not everyone agrees about coherency - otherwise Mystara wouldn't exist

Necessity is the mother of invention.

In a world with superheroes, prisons have to be built that can hold superheroes. In a world with adventurers, prisons have to be developed that can hold adventurers. If the technology doesn't exist, it is rapidly invented. It doesn't happen because a historical clock ticks to a certain point.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Necessity is the mother of invention.

In a world with superheroes, prisons have to be built that can hold superheroes. In a world with adventurers, prisons have to be developed that can hold adventurers. If the technology doesn't exist, it is rapidly invented. It doesn't happen because a historical clock ticks to a certain point.

Sure re: necessity, and it should make sense and be coherent.

Ideas come from places, ideas spread. This is the history of humanity and would be the history of all thinking beings beyond the most bizarre. People respond to threats - though weirdly D&D people have never responded to dragons/monsters in any coherent way. If they did I'd expect a lot more "Monster Hunter"-style stuff going on (esp. the heavy weaponry used to defend towns and so on). Oddly enough Japanese fantasy has tended to be far more rational and coherent re: monsters than Western fantasy.

Also, no prisons don't ever have to be built. That's a huge and ahistorical assumption. Prisons (rather than dungeons/towers/cells primarily used for political prisoners/hostages) are a rare feature in human history. They're a constant of the 20th century and appear a lot from the 1700s onwards, but before that? They're usually pretty rare. In most cases you simply execute someone.

And thus it would be with superheroes. They wouldn't be contained - it would be nearly impossible in most cases - they'd just be killed. And not via justice or judicial systems, either - via the military and intelligence agencies and so on, or their medieval predecessors. Or the superheroes would simply rule the world (most likely) and kill each other. Best case maybe people would do some kind of "Phantom Zone" deal and shift them to other realities or planes of existence, but as soon as a bad one managed to work their way back, killing would be back on the menu.

 

[Emoshin]

To me, the process of coherency looks something like:

1. Idea: Let's do a magitech prison
2. Idea: The prison is controlled by the Lord's Alliance
3. Begin due diligence: What are the implications of adding this to the world? Does Lord's Alliance do magitech elsewhere in Faerun? If yes, do they share it with the rest of the world or hoard it like Ironman? If not, where did they get this magitech from?

From there, the options could branch to:
A. Actually, let's revisit #1 and tone down the magitech
B. Actually, let's revisit #2 and change it from Lord's Alliance to a demi-god of captivity (who has godly imprisonment powers)
C. Actually, let's keep #1 and #2 and come up with a background story of the Lord's Alliance finding magitech in a Netheril ruins (and they used it in a prison because...)
D. [insert even more ideas]

My position is: whatever you decide, just put the effort into building the rationale and do it right.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

To me, the process of coherency looks something like:

1. Idea: Let's do a magitech prison
2. Idea: The prison is controlled by the Lord's Alliance
3. Begin due diligence: What are the implications of adding this to the world? Does Lord's Alliance do magitech elsewhere in Faerun? If yes, do they share it with the rest of the world or hoard it like Ironman? If not, where did they get this magitech from?

From there, the options could branch to:
A. Actually, let's revisit #1 and tone down the magitech
B. Actually, let's revisit #2 and change it from Lord's Alliance due to a demi-god of captivity (who has godly imprisonment powers)
C. Actually, let's keep #1 and #2 and come up with a background story of the Lord's Alliance finding magitech in a Netheril ruins (and they used it in a prison because...)
D. [insert even more ideas]

My position is: whatever you decide, just put the effort into building the rationale and do it right.

Absolutely spot-on.

To me this stuff is fundamental and has been my way of thinking about RPGs and adventure/setting design since literally day 1, because the DM who taught me, taught me that way. Later on learning history and archaeology only reinforced this. I will note I got a lot better at it as I got a bit older - when I was a younger teen I sometimes failed to reflect on what I was designing and whilst the results could be cute they weren't what they could be.

I understand there are people who've never taken this approach (again, hence Mystara), and for me, whilst I can see a superficial zany charm in their work, it tends to be basically uncompelling. That doesn't mean to say we need Tolkien-level worldbuilding operating 24-7, just basic thinking things through, and not just assuming things with no reflection/thought.

 

[SteveC]

If you haven't read it, I suggest Changeling by Roger Zelazny. It's a conflict between magic and technology on two worlds. I really enjoyed it and it is some good campaign fodder.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Also, no prisons don't ever have to be built. That's a huge and ahistorical assumption. Prisons (rather than dungeons/towers/cells primarily used for political prisoners/hostages) are a rare feature in human history. They're a constant of the 20th century and appear a lot from the 1700s onwards, but before that? They're usually pretty rare. In most cases you simply execute someone.

Sure, you could just execute someone, but an established feature of the Forgotten Realms is it is a world of Good and Evil, not real world pragmatism. The Lords Alliance cannot "just execute" criminals, because that would be Evil. Ergo, prisons to contain adventurers are a necessity.

And thus it would be with superheroes.

Likewise in the Marvel universe. In a world of comic book morality, the authorities cannot just execute inconvenient superheroes, so there are prisons for them.

 

[Emoshin]

Sure, you could just execute someone, but an established feature of the Forgotten Realms is it is a world of Good and Evil, not real world pragmatism. The Lords Alliance cannot "just execute" criminals, because that would be Evil. Ergo, prisons to contain adventurers are a necessity.

Sorry, why is that Evil?

Were all the adventurers in Faerun also Evil when they extrajudicially killed (aka murdered) Evil NPCs?

If adventurers are not Evil, then why is it that the Lords Alliance is Evil if they executed criminals, whereas adventures are not Evil when they pillage or infiltrate a lair, sometimes with the flimsiest of evidence and no due process?

Are the adventurers Evil because they don't knock criminals unconscious to 0 hp? What should do the adventurers do with all the prisoners they collect?

Is your view the standard view for Faerun?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

magitech prison

There is no "magitech". There is magic. It works like magic, as established in the Forgotten Realms. Pick a random D&D adventure, and you will find dungeons lit by continual light, guards who can detect invisibility, and anti-teleportation fields. Example, selected at random:

Unless otherwise noted, all keyed locations on the map are lit by continual flame spells. The only areas not illuminated in this way are places where the Allegiance of Allsight hasn’t yet erected protective wards (described below).

-Call of the Netherdeep​

As for the magic looking like technology, form follows function. Consider an iPhone. It is the size and shape it is so that it is convenient to use. Not because of how it works. If it worked by magic it would look identical.

 

[Emoshin]

There is no "magitech". There is magic. It works like magic, as established in the Forgotten Realms. Pick a random D&D adventure, and you will find dungeons lit by continual light, guards who can detect invisibility, and anti-teleportation fields. Example, selected at random:

If you say so, but please don't quote me with a quibble on usage of the word "magitech". You can pick an argument with everybody else who used that word here

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Is your view the standard view for Faerun?

If you read the opus of forgotten realms novels and source books, you will find execution without trial is considered an evil act. As opposed to killing in self defence, or the defence of others, which is not considered an evil act. Whilst your personal morality might differ, this is consistently how morality is portrayed in the Forgotten Realms. Thay executes anyone they like. The Lord's Alliance tries them, and only executes them for the most heinous crimes. This is consistent with how the Forgotten Realms has been portrayed. For the Lords Alliance to suddenly start executing prisoners without trial would be inconsistent.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If you say so, but please don't quote me with a quibble on usage of the word "magitech". You can pick an argument with everybody else who used that word here

I believe I can quibble with whoever I like so long as I remain within forum rules. Feel free to block me if you don't like what I have to say.

 

[Dioltach]

If you haven't read it, I suggest Changeling by Roger Zelazny. It's a conflict between magic and technology on two worlds. I really enjoyed it and it is some good campaign fodder.

It's been decades since I read that one. I always felt like the wrong guy won.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, you could just execute someone, but an established feature of the Forgotten Realms is it is a world of Good and Evil, not real world pragmatism. The Lords Alliance cannot "just execute" criminals, because that would be Evil. Ergo, prisons to contain adventurers are a necessity.

Is it evil? If the only way to stop someone from killing again, and you can use things like zone of truth to get an honest answer on that question, I'd debate that philosophy.

Likewise in the Marvel universe. In a world of comic book morality, the authorities cannot just execute inconvenient superheroes, so there are prisons for them.

The "heroes never kill" is golden age comic book morality. In many cases, it's really stupid* and the primary reason for it is so that the bad guy can escape and be a menace in the future so the stories don't have to come up with more supervillains. Which is what I tell my players - my D&D world can be a harsh place where the only solution is a permanent one. We aren't talking thieves who otherwise don't harm anyone or smugglers here, we're talking about villains that have taken many innocent lives and will continue to do so unless stopped.

*Because so often the protagonists have a chance to stop mass murder of innocents and it's really the only feasible way of doing so. Killing someone isn't great, but sometimes it's the only way to save innocent lives.

 

[Emoshin]

The "heroes never kill" is golden age comic book morality. In many cases, it's really stupid* and the primary reason for it is so that the bad guy can escape and be a menace in the future so the stories don't have to come up with more supervillains.

100%
The Joker being sent Arkham Asylum multiple times only to escape multiple times and torture countless innocents (and to repeat this over and over and over again) is ultimately to sell more comic books, not to abide by some moral principle. When framed as an ethical decision within the fiction, it leads to massively convoluted explanations.

 

[Orleander]

Awesome, so how do you handle car chases? and car builds for that matter

I wrote out some homebrew rules for vehicles. They're probably broken as hell though.
Let me know what you think.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sure, you could just execute someone, but an established feature of the Forgotten Realms is it is a world of Good and Evil, not real world pragmatism. The Lords Alliance cannot "just execute" criminals, because that would be Evil. Ergo, prisons to contain adventurers are a necessity.

Simply not true I'm afraid.

Waterdeep executes people all the time - just check out its legal code. None of those corrupt and self-interested Lords' Alliance cities is remotely shy about executing/maiming people AFAIK. If you have evidence of them being big wimps all of a sudden, I'd love to hear it, but it'd have to be a 4E/5E change. The laws are the same as in 2E, note, just arranged/presented differently, and "murder of a citizen without justification" is, as explained in the more detailed 2E account, extremely broad (self-defence is not necessarily "justification" IIRC).

(As an aside, the major cities/city-states in the Lords' Alliance are:

Baldur's Gate - canonically corrupt as hell, money rules, a council of the wealthy uses famously greedy bully-boy mercenaries to push people around. That's not an exaggeration, note, that's just canon. Let's not even get into when they were literally conquistadors.
Elturel - Been all over the road, but always has something fundamentally messed-up going on, whether it's corruption, brutal puritan authoritarianism (seriously - they were dragging people to work the mines for life for swearing), or being dragged to hell.
Iriaebor - Canonically "Waterdeep but way worse" - super corrupt. Real sword and sorcery/Fritz Leiber vibes. Frequently heavily infiltrated/run by the Zhentarim.
Mirabar - I don't know much about Mirabar - fine maybe?
Neverwinter - Used to be a good-guy city, like genuinely, currently (in 5E) ruled by a "despot" enforcing "heavy-handed laws", so there's another one!
Silverymoon - Maybe still a good-guy city? If so the only one in the Lords' Alliance. I don't see any obvious problems, though I hear the orgies the ruler throws are legendary (thanks Ed Greenwood, we definitely needed to know that!).
Waterdeep - An orderly and brutal city where power rules and nothing else matters much. It is quite historical that non-citizens get treated poorly, at least.

So anyway, point is, there ain't "good guy" cities - these are mostly "greedy merchant"-run cities, with Silverymoon (and previously Neverwinter) kind of an odd fit with the rest. The idea that they're totally cool and only ever jail people who aren't political prisoners or the like is obviously laughable.)

Is it evil? If the only way to stop someone from killing again, and you can use things like zone of truth to get an honest answer on that question, I'd debate that philosophy.

You'd get an honest answer, but it wouldn't necessarily be a useful one, because many malefactors would honestly believe themselves blameless or that they were only doing stuff for a specific reason. Zone of truth just makes them tell what they believe is the truth, not spit forth words of wisdom from the gods. It's also temporally bound - what a person says on one day may not be the truth to them on another day. It's useful to some extent for establishing facts, perhaps, but even then I'd question it because people being truthful are often factually wrong - as we're all aware with how incredibly unreliable and inaccurate witness perceptions are in court cases. I've been on a few juries and that certainly (sadly) seemed to hold true. It's more of a narrative convenience to sidestep the need for interrogation scenes etc.

The "heroes never kill" is golden age comic book morality. In many cases, it's really stupid* and the primary reason for it is so that the bad guy can escape and be a menace in the future so the stories don't have to come up with more supervillains. Which is what I tell my players - my D&D world can be a harsh place where the only solution is a permanent one. We aren't talking thieves who otherwise don't harm anyone or smugglers here, we're talking about villains that have taken many innocent lives and will continue to do so unless stopped.

I think this is kind of conflating three separate things. Golden age stuff is usually that the hero has a good reason to kill them emotionally but doesn't to show their heroism, and where there's a narratively convenient way to imprison the person in question. Whereas executing prisoners who have been captured and stand no real/significant chance of escape (which even in the FR, is going to be upwards of 95% of people being executed, based on what can get you executed in say, Waterdeep) is much more easy to argue is "Evil". But realistically most adventurers are acting entirely extrajudicially and don't even have jails they could drag prisoners back to, and further, with adventurers, the most dangerous beings they're dealing with are very often massively capable of escape. I mean, what we're going to jail a Beholder? A red dragon? A level 10+ Wizard? Doesn't how much I might value justice reform IRL, that's obviously impractical.

I have to say, I really don't like "adventurers as cops" (I know you aren't suggesting that) unless that's the whole deal. Fundamentally adventurers aren't cops. They're almost the opposite of cops - they're usually acting entirely outside the law, y'know, like outlaws!

 

[Baron Opal II]

nvm

 

[Bupp]

I wrote out some homebrew rules for vehicles. They're probably broken as hell though.
Let me know what you think.

I like the Car Wars type mini game of building a vehicle you have in there.

 

[Hussar]

Well I’m about to embark on a Spelljammer campaign and my current idea for the main antagonists are Cylon style clockwork golems that seek to supplant all life. Blending mtg’s Phyrexis with BSG.

So yeah. I’m pretty into mixing fantasy and sf.