5E Martial Levels (control extra attack gain for better MCing)

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I had considered allowing something like this which conceives martial levels to allow unifying maneuvers.


But instead of for merging access to maneuvers rather to make multi-classing better for Extra Attack acquisition.
For instance something story appropriate like your character is a Fighter who becomes Paladin before hitting level 5 the multiclassing seems designed to punish rather heavily but by tracking EA levels they merge more seemlessly.

What kinds of issues might there be?
 

houser2112

Explorer
It will encourage more multiclassing. As the rules are now, dipping out of Fighter is discouraged because you seriously delay the acquisition of Extra Attack.

I like it, because I actually like free multiclassing (and fractional BAB/Save optional rule that your suggestion brings to mind) from 3.x; a lot of other people on this board and the 5E designers in particular, do not. Giving ASIs as class features instead of character features, the way they explicitly disallow Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and Unarmored Defense to stack would point to this.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It will encourage more multiclassing. As the rules are now, dipping out of Fighter is discouraged because you seriously delay the acquisition of Extra Attack.
Indeed intended to encourage most intra-martial multiclassing any class that provides extra attacks should gain some EAL.
 
Just let you skip the EA5 level in class features when MCing.

Fighter's EA11/20 is the excpeption. Every other martial gets a EA5 and then other DPS boost at 11.

So if you are fighter 5 first, paladin 5 gives the pal6 class feature.

It is a bit of assymetry, but it prevents the "don't level past 4 when MCing martials" problem.

You can even move EA5 up; but bump class feature when you do. So fighter 2/paladin 3 gets an EA, but is missing pal3 or fighter2 features.

By 11 this isn't a problem. 6-10 isn't as significantly weaker than 11 as 1-4 is than 5. But delaying EA5 is big, as is a dead level from 2nd EA5.
 
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Xeviat

Adventurer
This is why I think the system should have been designed with scaling dice on weapon attacks, just like cantrips.

Classes could have gained different abilities at 5th level. Extra Attack is already WAY bigger than one would ever allow for a feat.

The rogue has great damage scaling because of the way Sneak Attack grows.

The Fighter could have gained a version of their old Weapon Mastery abilities. Paladins could have gained their radiant damage earlier. Rangers could have had it tied to a favored enemy/mark mechanic.

As it is now, Opportunity Attacks scale poorly because of multiattack, and multiclassing doesn't work properly with extra attack classes when this edition went a long way to making multiclassing work for spellcasters.
 

Horwath

Adventurer
One option:

add levels in martials for gaining 1st Extra attack. When both classes have Extra attack, give Extra ASI instead of it.

I.E: 5ht level paladin / 5th level ranger would have normal Extra attack feature and 3 ASIs. one for each 4th level of the classes and one extra instead of Extra attack from the class that got 2nd to the 5th level.

As for fighters "Extra"Extra attack features; you could keep it exclusive or add option that other martial classes give half their levels to "effective fighter level".
I.E. fighter 8/paladin6 would count as fighter 11 for fighters Extra attack features.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This is why I think the system should have been designed with scaling dice on weapon attacks, just like cantrips.

Classes could have gained different abilities at 5th level. Extra Attack is already WAY bigger than one would ever allow for a feat.

The rogue has great damage scaling because of the way Sneak Attack grows.

The Fighter could have gained a version of their old Weapon Mastery abilities. Paladins could have gained their radiant damage earlier. Rangers could have had it tied to a favored enemy/mark mechanic.

As it is now, Opportunity Attacks scale poorly because of multiattack, and multiclassing doesn't work properly with extra attack classes when this edition went a long way to making multiclassing work for spellcasters.
yeh I wondered about multi-attacking that erratic progression.. I am thinking of allowing number of opportunity attacks to scale as per extra attacks... but that doesn't address what you are talking about does it.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I played with the idea of a martial progression for Extra Attack when MCing similar to casters and spell slot progression, but ultimately decided against the idea.

For most dips, you are only delaying Extra Attack 1-2 levels, and the benefits you get from the other classes usually makes up for it (at least in the short term that you don't have Extra Attack).

At worst for a split class 4/4 design, you are delaying it 4 levels, but again depending on the classes the additional features/benefits are worth it.

If you allow it, you will find it greatly increases the overall power of martial builds. If that is your goal, it will do it, but I would try it out to see if it has too great an impact.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I played with the idea of a martial progression for Extra Attack when MCing similar to casters and spell slot progression, but ultimately decided against the idea.

For most dips, you are only delaying Extra Attack 1-2 levels, and the benefits you get from the other classes usually makes up for it (at least in the short term that you don't have Extra Attack).

At worst for a split class 4/4 design, you are delaying it 4 levels, but again depending on the classes the additional features/benefits are worth it.

If you allow it, you will find it greatly increases the overall power of martial builds. If that is your goal, it will do it, but I would try it out to see if it has too great an impact.
if extra attack wasn't such a huge power jump that would make more sense to me.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
perhaps show me what will be gained by a fighter in two levels that match up with that extra attack? for that time period?
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Well, a lot depends on your character build, but...

Barbarian 2 = Rage (for 1/2 damage and adv on STR checks), Rage Damage, Unarmored Defense, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense (good for those poor DEX saves)

Fighter 2 = Fighting Style, Second Wind, and Action Surge (all short rest abilities)

Monk 2 = Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, Ki (very useful and short rest also), and Unarmored Movement

Paladin 2 = Divine Sense (meh), Lay On Hands, Fighting Style, Spellcasting, and Divine Smite

Ranger 2 = Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, Fighting Style, and Spellcasting

Rogue 2 = Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, and Cunning Action

2 levels of spellcasters will get you a lot as well (most include subclass features), but hopefully you get the idea.

Depending on your build, the second Fighting Style can be really good, too.

I am not saying Extra Attack isn't powerful, I am saying it is. However, all the features you gain from 2 levels in any battler class can make up for that power and make doing the MC dip worth it. After all, you gain a lot for delaying Extra Attack a couple levels.

The real downside for doing the MC dip is losing out on the early ASI/feat choice.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
but no way its a match for 2x your fire power?
LOL you're picking out one thing out of all of them? Really? That makes me feel like I am wasting my time.

One last time... In general, I disagree. For instance, you could start as a Barbarian, then take 4 levels of Fighter. You are trading your Rage (two uses) with more or less twice your effective HP, bonus damage, and improved AC when not in armor. All-in-all, an equal trade-off for Extra Attack IMO. And the more foes that hit you, the better that half damage thing becomes.

In other cases, smite can be added after the hit, so although you only have a couple they can be timed for better use. With an additional fighting style, such as Two weapon, you can gain an additional attack via your bonus action. With cunning action you can attack, disengage as a bonus action, and move away. Having Expertise in Athletics improves your grapples. The reasons go on and on.

And all those bonuses and extra features stay with you, so in a level or two when you get Extra Attack, you are simply that much more effective.

Anyway, I am done. Try it out but it is a power-gamer sort of rule IMO. I know you prefer more super-hero-like characters--well, you'll get them.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
LOL you're picking out one thing out of all of them? Really? That makes me feel like I am wasting my time.
gonna take me a bit to process all of what you present I appreciate your opinion and explanations it will take some processing on my part.

It seems like in general multi-classing would take a lot of user finesse is what it feels like to either avoid crashing and burning sometimes or making characters too powerful. It really looks haphazard.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Let me see my fighter takes 2 levels of monk and can now take off his armor and fight too its flavorful for somewhat wanting to be Lancelot or Beowulf right .... but really how often will that part actually contribute in play. The only thing left is having that 2 pts of ki which is indeed interesting its nice to be able to once in a while have the utility to do super jumps or change it up sort of off hand strikes or sort of a free dodge. But its a bit like trading getting a very powerful every round effect for a once in a while convenience? Am I missing something and this is actually pretty darn good?
its potentially more than a delay... if we make it to end game I traded out having only 3 attacks instead of 4 and one fewer ASI
 
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the Jester

Legend
Let me see my fighter takes 2 levels of monk and can now take off his armor and fight too its flavorful for somewhat wanting to be Lancelot or Beowulf right .... but really how often will that part actually contribute in play.
To be fair, that's probably the worst possible example. Try this instead- you run a Dex fighter, secondary score Wisdom. By multiclassing, you can go armorless with a high AC, especially if you choose the Defense fighting style. With a Dex base, you want to go with light weapons, probably two-weapon fighting (speaking of fighting style choices...). So you're not typically going to get a lot out of your ability to land an extra attack as a bonus action. But your ki-activated options are all really good- throw in a couple of extra kicks; or Dash, Disengage, or Dodge and still get to attack. It makes you a bit more mobile and versatile, and it is probably the worst MC choice of the ones presented.

Most other combos are far better- two levels of rogue to get Cunning Action is absolutely worth it if you want to play a certain style of fighter (and here is where using missile weapons will really shine for you- you won't really want that BA for an off hand attack). Use that BA to hide every round, and you become a great sniper. Or two paladin levels to both allow you access to magic items that only spellcasters can attune to (hi there, wand of fireballs!) and to give you a few great utility spells. Your smiting won't always make up for that second attack, but it's reliable- you use it on a hit- and it allows you to hit monsters resistant to weapons with some radiant damage.

There are a couple of multiclass-crazy players that I've run for in 5e. I was dubious, and sometimes you can see the lowered damage have an effect, but usually, even triple-classed characters seem to have a fine level of ability- even sometimes if they are really non-optimal combinations (rogue/barbarian/monk).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
To be fair, that's probably the worst possible example.
I picked for flavor... certainly not because I thought it might be bad or good...
Try this instead- you run a Dex fighter, secondary score Wisdom.
That would have likely been a choice for optimization purposes I am sure and one of just wondering if I am doing that why not all Monk?

Or two paladin levels to both allow you access to magic items that only spellcasters can attune to (hi there, wand of fireballs!) and to give you a few great utility spells. Your smiting won't always make up for that second attack, but it's reliable- you use it on a hit- and it allows you to hit monsters resistant to weapons with some radiant damage.
What would be good utility spells I am kind of fond of Fighter gone paladin storyline and that was part of the reason I conceived of the adjustment to have EAL. The wand of fireballs sounds absolutely tacky btw LOL.
 

the Jester

Legend
I picked for flavor... certainly not because I thought it might be bad or good...
Fair enough!

That would have likely been a choice for optimization purposes I am sure and one of just wondering if I am doing that why not all Monk?
Well, you need a good Wis and Dex to multiclass monk anyhow. But emphasizing fighter gives you better weapon choice; more attacks with your action, and depending on what your subclass is, various other cool options and flavorful things such as superiority dice or improved crit range, etc.

What would be good utility spells
IDHMBIFOM, but protection from good and evil comes to mind immediately.
 

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