D&D 5E (2014) Martial Levels (control extra attack gain for better MCing)

[DND_Reborn]

if extra attack wasn't such a huge power jump that would make more sense to me.

It makes sense because it is a huge power jump.

 

[Garthanos]

perhaps show me what will be gained by a fighter in two levels that match up with that extra attack? for that time period?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, a lot depends on your character build, but...

Barbarian 2 = Rage (for 1/2 damage and adv on STR checks), Rage Damage, Unarmored Defense, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense (good for those poor DEX saves)

Fighter 2 = Fighting Style, Second Wind, and Action Surge (all short rest abilities)

Monk 2 = Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts, Ki (very useful and short rest also), and Unarmored Movement

Paladin 2 = Divine Sense (meh), Lay On Hands, Fighting Style, Spellcasting, and Divine Smite

Ranger 2 = Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, Fighting Style, and Spellcasting

Rogue 2 = Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, and Cunning Action

2 levels of spellcasters will get you a lot as well (most include subclass features), but hopefully you get the idea.

Depending on your build, the second Fighting Style can be really good, too.

I am not saying Extra Attack isn't powerful, I am saying it is. However, all the features you gain from 2 levels in any battler class can make up for that power and make doing the MC dip worth it. After all, you gain a lot for delaying Extra Attack a couple levels.

The real downside for doing the MC dip is losing out on the early ASI/feat choice.

 

[Garthanos]

Depending on your build, the second Fighting Style can be really good, too.

but no way its a match for 2x your fire power?

 

[DND_Reborn]

but no way its a match for 2x your fire power?

LOL you're picking out one thing out of all of them? Really? That makes me feel like I am wasting my time.

One last time... In general, I disagree. For instance, you could start as a Barbarian, then take 4 levels of Fighter. You are trading your Rage (two uses) with more or less twice your effective HP, bonus damage, and improved AC when not in armor. All-in-all, an equal trade-off for Extra Attack IMO. And the more foes that hit you, the better that half damage thing becomes.

In other cases, smite can be added after the hit, so although you only have a couple they can be timed for better use. With an additional fighting style, such as Two weapon, you can gain an additional attack via your bonus action. With cunning action you can attack, disengage as a bonus action, and move away. Having Expertise in Athletics improves your grapples. The reasons go on and on.

And all those bonuses and extra features stay with you, so in a level or two when you get Extra Attack, you are simply that much more effective.

Anyway, I am done. Try it out but it is a power-gamer sort of rule IMO. I know you prefer more super-hero-like characters--well, you'll get them.

 

[Garthanos]

LOL you're picking out one thing out of all of them? Really? That makes me feel like I am wasting my time.

gonna take me a bit to process all of what you present I appreciate your opinion and explanations it will take some processing on my part.

It seems like in general multi-classing would take a lot of user finesse is what it feels like to either avoid crashing and burning sometimes or making characters too powerful. It really looks haphazard.

 

[Garthanos]

Let me see my fighter takes 2 levels of monk and can now take off his armor and fight too its flavorful for somewhat wanting to be Lancelot or Beowulf right .... but really how often will that part actually contribute in play. The only thing left is having that 2 pts of ki which is indeed interesting its nice to be able to once in a while have the utility to do super jumps or change it up sort of off hand strikes or sort of a free dodge. But its a bit like trading getting a very powerful every round effect for a once in a while convenience? Am I missing something and this is actually pretty darn good?
its potentially more than a delay... if we make it to end game I traded out having only 3 attacks instead of 4 and one fewer ASI

 

[the Jester]

Let me see my fighter takes 2 levels of monk and can now take off his armor and fight too its flavorful for somewhat wanting to be Lancelot or Beowulf right .... but really how often will that part actually contribute in play.

To be fair, that's probably the worst possible example. Try this instead- you run a Dex fighter, secondary score Wisdom. By multiclassing, you can go armorless with a high AC, especially if you choose the Defense fighting style. With a Dex base, you want to go with light weapons, probably two-weapon fighting (speaking of fighting style choices...). So you're not typically going to get a lot out of your ability to land an extra attack as a bonus action. But your ki-activated options are all really good- throw in a couple of extra kicks; or Dash, Disengage, or Dodge and still get to attack. It makes you a bit more mobile and versatile, and it is probably the worst MC choice of the ones presented.

Most other combos are far better- two levels of rogue to get Cunning Action is absolutely worth it if you want to play a certain style of fighter (and here is where using missile weapons will really shine for you- you won't really want that BA for an off hand attack). Use that BA to hide every round, and you become a great sniper. Or two paladin levels to both allow you access to magic items that only spellcasters can attune to (hi there, wand of fireballs!) and to give you a few great utility spells. Your smiting won't always make up for that second attack, but it's reliable- you use it on a hit- and it allows you to hit monsters resistant to weapons with some radiant damage.

There are a couple of multiclass-crazy players that I've run for in 5e. I was dubious, and sometimes you can see the lowered damage have an effect, but usually, even triple-classed characters seem to have a fine level of ability- even sometimes if they are really non-optimal combinations (rogue/barbarian/monk).

 

[Garthanos]

To be fair, that's probably the worst possible example.

I picked for flavor... certainly not because I thought it might be bad or good...

Try this instead- you run a Dex fighter, secondary score Wisdom.

That would have likely been a choice for optimization purposes I am sure and one of just wondering if I am doing that why not all Monk?

Or two paladin levels to both allow you access to magic items that only spellcasters can attune to (hi there, wand of fireballs!) and to give you a few great utility spells. Your smiting won't always make up for that second attack, but it's reliable- you use it on a hit- and it allows you to hit monsters resistant to weapons with some radiant damage.

What would be good utility spells I am kind of fond of Fighter gone paladin storyline and that was part of the reason I conceived of the adjustment to have EAL. The wand of fireballs sounds absolutely tacky btw LOL.

 

[the Jester]

I picked for flavor... certainly not because I thought it might be bad or good...

Fair enough!

That would have likely been a choice for optimization purposes I am sure and one of just wondering if I am doing that why not all Monk?

Well, you need a good Wis and Dex to multiclass monk anyhow. But emphasizing fighter gives you better weapon choice; more attacks with your action, and depending on what your subclass is, various other cool options and flavorful things such as superiority dice or improved crit range, etc.

What would be good utility spells

IDHMBIFOM, but protection from good and evil comes to mind immediately.