D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[W'rkncacnter]

god I hope they make them better then that. I don't want goku but I want beowulf hercules and odysseus as the base floor of 11th level.

uh...woah, sheesh. like...okay, i guess i get odysseus, but beowulf and hercules? i'd imagine they're more 15th+ level. why 11th?

 

[Emberashh]

bit odd when you want martials to be accomplished doing martial things if you're requiring them to use magic weapons and devices to keep up with mages.

I'm positive the over-obsession with niche protection is the single reason DND seems beset by something no other fantasy world or genre ever concerns itself with.

Special weapons, be they magical, divinely empowered, or just really well made, are a trope in fantasy that has its roots in more ancient than ancient mythologies. At no point in fantasy, other than in this weird bubble of DND, is the usage of one an indicator that an otherwise skilled warrior something less than or significantly different than what they are.

When Captain America lifts Mjolnir, he doesn't become a lesser hero, nor is he crippled when he puts it back down. Hes still Captain America at the end of the day.

Comic fantasy in particular is very blunt about this trope and why it has zero bearing on who the hero is; if you're nothing without the suit/sword/etc then you shouldn't have it.

Now, you can point at what martials in 5e can do sans special items and point that out as a problem, and that is in fact the problem, but that has nothing to do with special items, as martials and casters alike should have ready access to them to enhance themselves. That a martial in 5e might be dependent on a magic item to be more isn't an issue with martials not being martials if they have to use magic swords to keep up, but a issue with martials being underbaked thats only partially mitigated by magic items.

 

[Vaalingrade]

uh...woah, sheesh. like...okay, i guess i get odysseus, but beowulf and hercules? i'd imagine they're more 15th+ level. why 11th?

Because look at what everyone who matters to D&D gets to be like at 11th.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

uh...woah, sheesh. like...okay, i guess i get odysseus, but beowulf and hercules? i'd imagine they're more 15th+ level. why 11th?

because at 11th we have people bringing back the dead and turning people to ash... that is well beyond any magic in most of those stories.

Spoiler: spells

arcane gate, blade barrier, chain lightning, contingency, conjure XXX, disinitagrate, flesh to stone, Harm, Heal, Magic Jar, planar ally, true seeing is a not complete list of spells at this level... of those chain lightning and flesh to stone are the only two I could imagine in the power level of beowulf and hercules... but the casters wont be limited to JUST that they can do that once per day and twice per day do something like bring the dead back, or the like... and 9 times (3/3/3) uses 2nd-4th levels spells and 4 times 1st.

in any given adventure with beowulf and hercules you have wizards that gandalf and merlin would be in awe of for there daily out put...

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Because look at what everyone who matters to D&D gets to be like at 11th.

because at 11th we have people bringing back the dead and turning people to ash... that is well beyond any magic in most of those stories.

Spoiler: spells

arcane gate, blade barrier, chain lightning, contingency, conjure XXX, disinitagrate, flesh to stone, Harm, Heal, Magic Jar, planar ally, true seeing is a not complete list of spells at this level... of those chain lightning and flesh to stone are the only two I could imagine in the power level of beowulf and hercules... but the casters wont be limited to JUST that they can do that once per day and twice per day do something like bring the dead back, or the like... and 9 times (3/3/3) uses 2nd-4th levels spells and 4 times 1st.

in any given adventure with beowulf and hercules you have wizards that gandalf and merlin would be in awe of for there daily out put...

fair enough...

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Sure. The mechanics are also a kind of "flavor".

For me, it is extremely important that the flavor and the mechanics cohere with each other.

If the flavor makes a claim that the mechanics are unable to actualize, it becomes highly unpleasant.

Oppositely, there are situations where the mechanics do something that the flavor doesnt really explain well. This can be problem for Martial flavor, such as forcing the decision-making of a target, without explaining how a nonmagical character who is unable to Charm, is able to do this. There needs to be a convincing explanation, such as a plausible psychological trick, or physical maneuver.

In my view, these situations concern a specific power. The specific power can be clarified or rewritten for a fix. Meanwhile, the general approach of powers with different flavors works well in 4e.

I agree it can work well, if you support 4e's design philosophy.

Incoherence and malleability are not the same thing.

Yeah, 4e must be approached within its design philosophy. Otherwise it does become incoherent. People can claim they don't like the design philosophy, but I've never heard a good argument for incoherence when embracing the overall philosophy.

I'm not even sure the approach that works well was even fully the original designers intentions, but at this point who cares? One way of approaching 4e makes everything make sense (narrative confluence, refluffing, HP as heroic energy, in fiction situations should be changing as DCs get higher, mechanics are not "world truth" but soley adjucate PC vs X, skills mean something different in skill challenges that outside, etc.) and sticking to other approaches makes things not work.

 

[Incenjucar]

In 4E terms, most literary wizards would be all dailies and no encounter powers. They do one big wallop move that changes the balance, and then they fall back and maintain or support while the martials work the advantage.

5E wizards just keep on pumping out more and more spells.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think we need a new standard of martial prowess besides Hercules. Sure he was strong, but his feats were beating up some wild animals, doing some basic civil engineering and failing saves vs Will and Poison like it was going out of style. Sure he held up the vault of the heavens, but how hard is it to keep the atmosphere from falling to Earth? Dude needed a super genius child to help when he filled in for Thor.

I nominate Kratos, who has better feats of strength, actual martial technique and slaps around gods like a good Mid-level fighter ought. Plus he has a WAY better domestic track record than Mister Can't Make a Will Save to Save His LWife.

 

[HammerMan]

because at 11th we have people bringing back the dead and turning people to ash... that is well beyond any magic in most of those stories.

Spoiler: spells

arcane gate, blade barrier, chain lightning, contingency, conjure XXX, disinitagrate, flesh to stone, Harm, Heal, Magic Jar, planar ally, true seeing is a not complete list of spells at this level... of those chain lightning and flesh to stone are the only two I could imagine in the power level of beowulf and hercules... but the casters wont be limited to JUST that they can do that once per day and twice per day do something like bring the dead back, or the like... and 9 times (3/3/3) uses 2nd-4th levels spells and 4 times 1st.

in any given adventure with beowulf and hercules you have wizards that gandalf and merlin would be in awe of for there daily out put...

@GMforPowergamers used to say “every hero has an origin story but they all have powers no matter what the origin is”

Was Spider-Man mutated by a radioactive spider bite or magical chosen by the spider totem? It doesn’t really matter.

 

[Marandahir]

I'm positive the over-obsession with niche protection is the single reason DND seems beset by something no other fantasy world or genre ever concerns itself with.
... [snip]...
Now, you can point at what martials in 5e can do sans special items and point that out as a problem, and that is in fact the problem, but that has nothing to do with special items, as martials and casters alike should have ready access to them to enhance themselves. That a martial in 5e might be dependent on a magic item to be more isn't an issue with martials not being martials if they have to use magic swords to keep up, but a issue with martials being underbaked thats only partially mitigated by magic items.

Agreed with all of this. It's closely related to my concerns of the 5MWD. In both cases, these are solutions that require the DM to actively design the campaign to give the martials things to do rather than thinking about martials from the ground up in regards to their powers and abilities as heroes.

I do think that there's a very big challenge to navigate between people who want Martials to have Anime/4e/Book-of-9-Swords superpowers to express their heroism and people who want Martials to simply get higher dice counts and extra attacks and more rages and wider crit ranges, etc. Minimalist mechanics allowing the Martial to feel non-magical but powerful, and giving them room to use their skills to improvise.

I think the Weapon Mastery abilities for each weapon type is a nice exploration of ways that martials can get more out of what they do without it feeling magical. I also think that 4e's Martial Practices are worth looking at as a parallel to Ritual Caster and a way to get more out of skills in a way that feels like Martials have something more to do. And 4e's Skill Powers are worth looking at too! But I don't think all supernatural Martials should be Monks or Fighters with a supernatural subclass or a Spellcaster of somesort. I'm just not sure how to make it all fit together without creating a new class that is essentially a Fighter in narrative but with Book of 9 Swords type mechanics.