D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Incenjucar]

Genetic lotto winner means you're the best human at everything, through chance coincidence of genetic factors. That's an explanation.

Perfected technique means you've learned something which, if beyond human, is by definition supernatural. That's an explanation.

Mysterious powers, even if unexplained (and I would hope they are eventually) gives you superhuman abilities. That's an explanation, albeit not a great one.

Radioactive spider bite is definitely an explanation, as is exposure to cosmic rays, "heavy water", finding a cool ring, or being a mutant

"I'm just that good", isn't an explanation, it's a catchphrase.

"Because I'm Batman"

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Because I'm Batman"

Also a catchphrase.

 

[Minigiant]

It's funny.

The original interpretation of thieves in D&D was that they had a chance that they could literally hide and become invisible in shadows or silent to those without extraordinary sense. Not that other people could not sneak or hide.

A fighters has unlimited attacks against mooks. Full on Dynasty Warriors.

But the playerbase and DMbase, rather than create solid stealth or cleave or ranger tracking or ambush for regular folk, co-opted supernatural features for the base system, nerfed them, and got upset that the game breaks after level 10.

Funny.

It's been 50 years and we still don't have solid stealth, cleave, tracking, and ambush rules in D&D.

 

[Incenjucar]

Also a catchphrase.

It works, though. Plot armor is the greatest power in the multiverse.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Oh they most certainly are. There was a reason druids could turn into mundane earth animals but not displacer beasts and owlbears (prior to the movie at least). The game used to keep some notion that things that also exist in the real world act like they do in the real world, and if they don't exist in the real world there is a magical explanation for it. Gods, demon lords, "a wizard did it". It gives the world a frame of reference that without makes the world alien.

But if that's what people want, go nuts. Cats speak common. Horses run on air. Wolves breathe underwater, humans can jump 30 feet vertical leap. Because: dragons.

I feel you are being a bit dramatic and overlooking some powers that already exist in the game.

Let's look at
- evasion: a rogue can take 0 damage when in the epicentre of a fireball or meteor swarm. They can do this routinely, without the benefit of cover and even when there's no possible place to escape the explosion(like trapped a small room). Sounds like magic.
-blindsense: a rogue is aware of invisible enemies within 10 feet as long as they can hear. They must have some kind of supernatural hearing.
-Stroke of Luck: can defy odds and turn a miss into a hit. Without needing to be the progeny of the luck god.
-Second wind: can (non)magically heal themselves without needing a cleric
-Extra attack+actions surge: attack 1/second without needing to be magically hasted. Without being part speedy wind elemental.


Those are all base class abilities.

Horses run on air: they are called pegasus. (also non-magical creatures). Nightmares do it too.
Cats speak common: Tabaxi
I haven't found a Wolf that breathes water but a Winter Wolf can breath a cone of cold.

I won't argue this point anymore. Obviously, in your fiction or fantasy settings, you need to justify specific abilities with some kind of mythical background. It just sounds kind of random to me since so many abilities are clearly unrealistic and don't need the same kinds of justifications.

For me, at least, I'd be happy - to go back to my original point - to have martial classes get a few epic abilities based on their mundane skills to represent how they've perfected those skills to such an extent that they become supernatural. I'd be happy to have that so that they could compete with wizardy classes and I'd be happy to let them have it without needing to codify the fluff as part of the class.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm assuming you are speaking about the Epic Level Handbook, which was never part of the core assumptions of D&D and was routinely ignored?

Because I've played Thieves in 2e onwards and I NEVER got cool things like you described. I got made irrelevant when wizards had enough scrolls, wands and slots to cast invisibility, knock, spider climb and similar magic whenever they wanted. You think fighters have it bad, 2e thief was worthless unless you were multi-classed.

So sure, we can create a level 21 onwards where all that mythic stuff lived. It's right about where 10th level magic lived too.

I believe he's talking about the Thief of Legend Epic Destiny from 4e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It works, though. Plot armor is the greatest power in the multiverse.

True, but making plot armor a rule is not the kind of fantasy game I prefer.

 

[Incenjucar]

True, but making plot armor a rule is not the kind of fantasy game I prefer.

Not a fan of fantasy media?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not a fan of fantasy media?

Not a fan of explicit plot armor in games. Big fan of fantasy media. They are different things with different strengths to me.

 

[Minigiant]

True, but making plot armor a rule is not the kind of fantasy game I prefer.

Would a fighter who benefits from helpful accidents and circumstances due to Divine preference be okay plot armor.

I mean couldn't a warriors bonus HP be the gods of war, slaught, life, and death putting the warrior of their fantasy team or taking same day parlays of the gods of chance.

(jots down new idea)