D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, how do we justify that a rogue can dodge fire. As in automatically reduces damage to the point of taking no damage.

Something no other being in the universe can do because no other being can do it to virtually any energy attack.

The rogue being able to dodge that giant’s club (but only once per six seconds ) doesn’t need a supernatural explanation. Why does the fighter?

My verisimilitude demands that successful Dex saves earn the character movement equal to the size of the effect, minimum 10ft.

 

[Krachek]

Occasionally there are mechanical considerations, like some Monk powers wont work in an antimagic zone. Would your DM waive this?



For the sake of narrative adjudication, I would require mechanical explanation for the fiery illumination.

If it is the Light cantrip, fine. If it is a perpetual nonmagical torch, fine. But can the Genasi even turn off this fire-hair? If so, how? As a DM, I need to know these things. They have situational story implications.

We play from 3 to 7th level. Honestly if my DM tell me my monk don’t have his ki power due to an anti magic zone, I would interpret that my savage monk feel his instinct interfere by some wicked magic. As a player I would continue interpreting my monk according to DM description. That is players job.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

There needs to be an official default narrative that makes superhuman powers sound kinda sorta plausible.

At the same time, DMs − especially worldbuilders − need to easily change this flavor.

So the default flavor needs to be a light touch, such as a single sidebar mentioning the flavor once. The official default flavor must avoid baking into every mechanics everywhere. DMs need a freehand to edit flavor, and it is unfun to the DM to be forced to fight against the Players Handbook on almost every page.

I don’t think there HAS to be but I get it if people want that. I think ‘Fighter’ has enough narrative flavour for me to take any power and bake it into a story and make it fit the setting I’m playing in. Being so good at something (like acrobatics or athletics ) as to be the rare person who ‘unlocked’ the secrets of flight seems a perfectly good justification for a power. (Just as an example since it was used several times). It seems just as plausible as ‘blood of a Demi-god’ but I see the former is much more proactive (practicing and becoming renown for it) while the latter is passive ‘background’ fluff.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

What's counted as too superhuman can be weird, just look at grappling, a medium PC can do it against a large creature, like a bear, a horse, or a rhino. Now imagine a person holding a Rhinoceros in place with one hand.

 

[Yaarel]

I don’t think there HAS to be but I get it if people want that. I think ‘Fighter’ has enough narrative flavour for me to take any power and bake it into a story and make it fit the setting I’m playing in. Being so good at something (like acrobatics or athletics ) as to be the rare person who ‘unlocked’ the secrets of flight seems a perfectly good justification for a power. (Just as an example since it was used several times). It seems just as plausible as ‘blood of a Demi-god’ but I see the former is much more proactive (practicing and becoming renown for it) while the latter is passive ‘background’ fluff.

There has to be a default flavor, from a reallife marketing point of view.

There are many players (including DMs including me) who want to create their own flavor. So the default flavor needs to be innocuous and easy to remove and override.

That said, many other players (and probably numerically greater) feel it is the designers job as an author to supply a rich and flavorful world. In the interviews, the designers themselves often mention the importance of "narrative" when deciding if a concept justifies an addition to the mechanics.


The other day I was looking at a chart that showed the result of an informal survey. It was contrasting how good the mechanics of each subclass is versus how fun the subclass is to play.

There was a direct correlation between how mechanically effective something is and how fun it is to play.

The only exception to the direct correlation is, somethings can be acknowledged to be mechanically effective but still unfun. There were no examples of something fun that is ineffective.

My takeaway from it is. Fun flavor must have mechanics to support it. But good mechanics can never be a substitute for fun flavor.

The DM can invent new flavor that the players enjoy. But there can never be a vacuum in flavor.


If a Fighter does things that are overtly superhuman, a flavorful explanation needs to fill the vacuum.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's nothing supernatural about an Open Hand Monk. Yet, Open Hand Monks can do all sorts of things that are superhuman.

Rogues have zero supernatural training and yet are literally performing superhuman (as in more than any human can do) feats simply through training (ie leveling up). To the point I can automatically hit ANY target. No matter what. At 20th level, my rogue training makes me so good that no matter what, I hit. The target could have an AC of 100 and it doesn't matter. I hit.

Fighters don't even get that much.

Heroic Determination
At level 6 your determination, focus, and grit, have made you unstoppable when you push yourself. When you fail an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw, you can choose to succeed instead. You can do so once, and regain the ability to use this ability when you complete a short rest. At level 11, 14, 17, and 20, you gain an additional use of this ability.

 

[Yaarel]

Now imagine a person holding a Rhinoceros in place with one hand.

Maybe by the nostrils?

 

[Krachek]

As I player my job is to describe what I want to do, and react to DM description.
If my DM say : »you are dead«
I would say stop! Let me first describe the scene of how my head is smashed away by the giant!
I wouldn’t not argue about the DC or other technical detail.

 

[Gammadoodler]

@Gammadoodler does seem to be saying that, unless I'm misunderstanding them. My original replay was, I think, to them actually.

What I have said is that I don't believe that a high level D&D PC human (or any other PC race), of any class, needs to continue to follow the same rules as an Earth human.

And I don't believe that they need a specific narrative justification for their ability to depart from that standard. Whatever supernatural thing leveling up allows them to do, they have adequate narrative justification to do it. Players and DMs can decide what that narrative justification is, if necessary. But the game doesn't need to address it at all.

All the game needs to do is provide fun cool maybe supernatural things for high level PCs to do.

 

[SteveC]

I'm just going to post this list of DC's for Epic level Skill use from 3.5. If you want to know the DC to balance on a cloud, it's there (it's DC 120). So there is precedent for some amazing stuff.