D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

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Can't speak for the fire..but in the spell description for control water.

"Any Huge or smaller vehicles struck by the wave have a 25 percent chance of capsizing."
It's no longer a spell in D&D I think, but in the Skulls and Shackles Pathfinder game I was in, my druid took water elemental form and cast Repel Wood while underneath a ship, launching it into the air.

It was a great moment, but perhaps not coincidentally, there wasn't another session...

A lot of problematic spells aren't seen as problematic until they're used creatively. And a lot of players don't see any problem using them, I mean, they're in the game, right? Surely they were intended to be used?

When I'm playing, I don't often stop to go "now wait, James, will this break the game in half?", I'm trying to solve a problem with the tools at hand. I have lived to regret some of my choices, however.
 

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Can't speak for the fire..but in the spell description for control water.

"Any Huge or smaller vehicles struck by the wave have a 25 percent chance of capsizing."
The smallest ship in 5e, the single crew Keelboat is gargantuan. It carries 3 crew and 4 passengers. Or are we talking rowboats here? Which are still large. 25% chance of capsizing. That was lucky taking out 3!
 

The smallest ship in 5e, the single crew Keelboat is gargantuan. It carries 3 crew and 4 passengers. Or are we talking rowboats here? Which are still large. 25% chance of capsizing. That was lucky taking out 3!
Addressed it in the edit..repeatable effect per round for the 10 minute duration. 100 chances to inflict it.

Lucky the 1 ship survived.
 

Can't speak for the fire..but in the spell description for control water for the Flood effect..

"Any Huge or smaller vehicles struck by the wave have a 25 percent chance of capsizing."

And wouldn't you know it, you repeat that effect every round for the duration of..(checks notes)..10 minutes. So a potential for 100 opportunities to fail the 1 in 4 check.

I know..it's hard to imagine a single spell having such an impact on an encounter..right?
I think it also is the spell that allows you to bottom out and split water to make a trench or path. Then let the water flood back in.
 

The gaming scene is not the same as in the 70s. Decades of change in media, game design, and culture cannot be simply ignored by modern audiences, anymore than more experienced players can simply flush their knowledge out.
 


How should we approach this?

That depends on the context of where that fix is going to happen. Theres different answers if the context is "5e" versus "OneDND".

Thats what I was getting at, if poorly, about not framing complaints as asking for help.

If the context is 5e, the myriad ways suggested by me and others (like Improvise Action, more conscious multi-dimensional adventure design, etc) is the way to go. Those are the tools within 5e that exist to address those issues.

If its OneDND, theres a dearth of options, and plenty have suggested ideas there too. The big difference is that these suggestions all aim to negate the problem being a problem at all, rather than work around, through, over or under it.

The only remaining contention that connects these two is that, as argued before, if what exists already isn't cutting it, then the issues causing that should be addressed first, and then the question of Martials can follow those fixes.

Like with IA; it can and should be integrated better as an option for players. DCC shows at least one model for what that can look like mechanically.

And heck, I could even point at the new actions in 1DND that support this is how you can address these issues. Those new actions aren't really anything new in the system, but their better promenance as explicit (if open-ended) options is better for the game.

And Id even go as far as to argue none of these issues would even be such a contentious and hotly debated topic at all if 5e just had better DM support from the get go, even if all of those issues were still present, just because then a lot of the consequences of the problem just won't reveal themselves outside of niche situations and deep dive examinations.
 

It's no longer a spell in D&D I think, but in the Skulls and Shackles Pathfinder game I was in, my druid took water elemental form and cast Repel Wood while underneath a ship, launching it into the air.

It was a great moment, but perhaps not coincidentally, there wasn't another session...

A lot of problematic spells aren't seen as problematic until they're used creatively. And a lot of players don't see any problem using them, I mean, they're in the game, right? Surely they were intended to be used?

When I'm playing, I don't often stop to go "now wait, James, will this break the game in half?", I'm trying to solve a problem with the tools at hand. I have lived to regret some of my choices, however.
So the spell sent the ship 60 ft up, and then what? Did the Druid pick the exact point of equilibrium to make the ship balance on the point? Or did it not just land back in the water the next round? Surely the ship had forward momentum or was it stationary/becalmed/anchored.

Incidentally, I bloody loved running Skull and Shackles!
 

It's no longer a spell in D&D I think, but in the Skulls and Shackles Pathfinder game I was in, my druid took water elemental form and cast Repel Wood while underneath a ship, launching it into the air.

It was a great moment, but perhaps not coincidentally, there wasn't another session...
It's worth noting that the Skull & Shackles Player's Guide (i.e. the free PDF that Paizo released when they started publishing that adventure path) explicitly addresses things like this, saying (page 17):
Repel Wood: If you are standing on a ship, that ship is considered a fixed object in relation to you and is not affected by this spell. Loose objects on your ship, or on other ships within range, are affected normally. A ship under the control of a pilot can make a Will save to negate the effects of this spell.
So while you weren't standing on the ship, meaning that it wasn't a fixed object for you, the pilot should still have gotten a save.
 


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