D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Scott Christian]

It's a game targeted at middle school children. They deserve to have a good experience with it without needing to drag adults or the horrors of the internet into it.

And guess what, they do have a good experience. I run the D&D at my high school. When I taught in a different state, I ran that D&D club. They have fun. And, believe it or not, out of all the times I watch them (I am just there if they have a rule question, I do not play) they never ever have a problem with game balance or this wizard can do this and my fighter sucks. I've never seen it. Not once.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Addressed it in the edit..repeatable effect per round for the 10 minute duration. 100 chances to inflict it.

Lucky the 1 ship survived.

The ships shouldn’t have been huge or smaller, and should have still been moving after being moved by a large wave, making it difficult to hit them with the wave every round, especially after giving them momentum in the direction of the wave.

not exactly the rules fault the spell “broke” the encounter.

 

[Krachek]

This. This all day!

Tools? What more do you want them to have?
(On a side note, listening to your table and how it's run the past couple of years, it must be maddening for you. Everything is always unbalanced. If everyone is not always min-maxed the entire party is liable to have a TPK. And DMs can't run an adventure that even remotely guides the players. That said, I can assure you most do not have that experience.)

Why? Everyone has to start somewhere, and if you are going to build a game that requires the person running it to have read a 300 page rulebook, a 300 page guidebook, and a 300 page monster manual, why should they be able to run a decent game? The truth is, we all started either with someone that knew what they were doing, or we fumbled through it with friends that showed a lot of grace.

I swear, it seems like sometimes people forget that this is a game - a game that requires the person running to have impromptu skills, to know the rules, to be able to make logical decisions for their realm on the fly and keep them consistent, and then read the room and make sure everyone feels included and that their PCs have a bit of limelight.

But sure, someone running the game the first time should be able to do all those things decently.

I dont ask for an impossible thing.
players are bored, needing challenge and enemy, the Dm job is to thrown some at them.
PC are looking for information, services, cure, resting, transportation, allies, the DM should work to make those things happen.
How, when, and linking that with the rest of the story can be done with more or less skill. But fufilling the basic interest of the PCs is not a so complex job.

 

[Incenjucar]

And guess what, they do have a good experience. I run the D&D at my high school. When I taught in a different state, I ran that D&D club. They have fun. And, believe it or not, out of all the times I watch them (I am just there if they have a rule question, I do not play) they never ever have a problem with game balance or this wizard can do this and my fighter sucks. I've never seen it. Not once.

Did you miss the part about an adult?

 

[Minigiant]

Gygax, who gave the fighter a freaking army and a castle while punishing mages relentlessly for their choice to play a mage.

It's been buried under caster superiority veiled behind simplicity and verisimilitude.

Gygax was an equal opportunity hoser.

It all broke when 3e WOTC listen to caster fans who didn't want to be gear dependent.

In 3e, WOTC tried to make martials not gear dependent but part of the gear's power was strictly magical.

And that's where these 90 page discussion is on. There are 5 choices

1) Make everyone gear dependent again.

2) Make Martials gear independent and let them some of choose their gear.

3) Make Martials gear independent and make the aspects of their gear into class features.

4) Make Martials gear independent and give them strengths in new aspects of the game

5) Nerf spells, slots, or both

 

[TheSword]

1) Make everyone gear dependent again.

Enforce spell costs strictly.

2) Make Martials gear independent and let them some of choose their gear.

Let marshals choose a magic weapon at a certain point if they haven’t found one already.
Later on let them pick a fantastic mount - griffon or Pegasus.

3) Make Martials gear independent and make the aspects of their gear into class features.

Kind of what I was driving at with magic weapons. A bit like the 3e Rokugan samurai got to pick a magic weapon that leveled as they did.

4) Make Martials gear independent and give them strengths in new aspects of the game

Have more combat manouvers than the base 5-6 we have and then martial characters be good at them - disarm, trip, blind, entangle etc. either by keying off HD or being linked to weapon mastery/fighting styles.

5) Nerf spells, slots, or both

Play spells as written rather than how players wish effects should work.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think it's more fair to characterize the entire thread as a discussion around the question of "presuming we agree that there is a disparity in favor of spellcasters, do we lower them to the level of martials, or raise martials up to their level?"

Different people have different answers to that question, and that's okay.

This is a good premise, but I think this thread is more:

"Assuming you agree that there is a disparity in favor of spellcasters and changing spell casters is off limits, how can we bring the martials up at higher levels?"

The OP was proposing some changes to the world itself that might help, but I haven't seen many ideas there, likely because it isn't really possible to close much distance only doing this given the disparity.

As usual we still have a bunch of "there is no disparity because my table norms/adventure design/house rules make it ok" or "I don't really care that a disparity exists anyway, I like it."

 

[Incenjucar]

Fundamentally the game is failing to be fun for some players, and they would like it if the game would change so they could have more fun.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

And guess what, they do have a good experience. I run the D&D at my high school. When I taught in a different state, I ran that D&D club. They have fun. And, believe it or not, out of all the times I watch them (I am just there if they have a rule question, I do not play) they never ever have a problem with game balance or this wizard can do this and my fighter sucks. I've never seen it. Not once.

I mean, I had a lot of fun playing Rifts in the day. Doesn't mean it was good design. The fun was in spite of the system in this case.

Is it hard to imagine that a system can produce fun, but if designed better could produce more fun? Or fun for a wider audience?

Are you telling me that adding a mythic martial class to the D&D core book or optional splat book would have derailed all that high school fun?

Fundamentally the game is failing to be fun for some players, and they would like it if the game would change so they could have more fun.

Exactly. And I believe most (all) of the mythic martial supporters are saying -- keep your champion and battlemaster and that fun. Just add this different fun that is no more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard. Shouldn't be an issue, right?

 

[HammerMan]

As usual we still have a bunch of "there is no disparity because my table norms/adventure design/house rules make it ok" or "I don't really care that a disparity exists anyway, I like it."

It is a reoccurring issue. Once upon a time it would be one or two people but more and more it is filling threads