D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[HammerMan]

Another thought is tiering the system. I don't mean just giving names to the tiers, although I think that might be important. But what about actually creating an immortal tier?
Maybe scale down everyone for levels 1-12 or 1-15. Then, once a certain level is reached, power the heck out of all the classes. I mean superhero scale powers for everyone. Make them immortal. Give them things to do like displace other gods or destroy worlds. Stop calling them adventurers, and clearly contextualize that they are not adventurers anymore - they are minor deities, and if not stopped, will eventually become gods.

Yeah a basic Teri then expert

 

[Minigiant]

I could be wrong, but isn't Dungeon of the Mad Mage and Candlekeep both to level 20?

Dungeon of the Mad Mage, IIFC, is fully level 5-20 with no real travel outside the dungeon except to Water deep.

Candlekeep is a set of one shots.

This is exactly the problem. Neither is an actual standard campaign.

 

[HammerMan]

Dungeon of the Mad Mage, IIFC, is fully level 5-20 with no real travel outside the dungeon except to Water deep.

Candlekeep is a set of one shots.

This is exactly the problem. Neither is an actual standard campaign.

I hate to say it but being in a mega dungeon seems the only way to get WoTC to even try

 

[Minigiant]

I hate to say it but being in a mega dungeon seems the only way to get WoTC to even try

Because it's the easiest thing for them to design and get high satisfaction.

Little talking. No space for unexpected movement. PCs are inclined to push forward. Controlled economy. Little plot to break.

ez mode.

 

[nevin]

One of the biggest problems with High level play is it means different things at different tables. Are your gods Greek levels of power or are they pseudo Christian and can do anything. Does High level mean the standard rules for everyone else don't apply to the characters or are they trying to function within the rules while the gods, demons, devils etc screw with them from on high an on low. What makes one table happy will upset another. I don't see anyway to change that with 50 years of baggage hanging on. And I've never seen any data that indicates anything past level 12 to 15 happens very often. I love running these games but I'll admit the sweet spot is 10 to 18 for power for an experienced DM and probably 9 to 14 for an inexperienced dm that wants to try. And as soon as I hit post a lot of people will validate this by telling me how wrong those level ranges are for them. High level for me is just taking off the training wheels and all the other stuff that is supposed to make levels mean something and going up into a superhero game. I've played a few where the DM basically screwed every ability that they could to make the high level controllable for them but then no one has fun. That being said at High level things should be getting real. WAAAY back I played in a game were we went after arch devils because we were almost 20. Turns out messing with near dieties who can grant each other wishes really sucks...... At high level all those things you hate as a DM. Teleport, Wish, Simalcrum, vorpal swords invulnerable mythic armor become your toys as well. Use em have fun. At that level if the players don't plan they'll suffer or even die. Or they should.

Just don't forget to give them those heroic easy mode moments where they roll in and destroy the bandits holding the town hostage or other stuff. Sometimes the reward for being badass is you get to kick ass and enjoy the moment.

 

[Emberashh]

My model for high level play (in DND and my own game) is

Lord of the Ring's
as directed by Michael Bay and Guillermo Del Toro,
with accompanying score by Dethklok and Hans Zimmer,
starring Nicholas Cage as Frodo and Daniel Day Lewis as Aragorn.​

 

[nevin]

My model for high level play (in DND and my own game) is

Lord of the Ring's
as directed by Michael Bay and Guillermo Del Toro,
with accompanying score by Dethklok and Hans Zimmer,
starring Nicholas Cage as Frodo and Daniel Day Lewis as Aragorn.​

Sounds Legit. Michael Bay may suck at story telling but he's got High level play down pat.

 

[Incenjucar]

Because it's the easiest thing for them to design and get high satisfaction.

Little talking. No space for unexpected movement. PCs are inclined to push forward. Controlled economy. Little plot to break.

ez mode.

Basically a dungeon adventure works like a video game so you can design it like it's Banjo Kazooie.

 

[Chaosmancer]

In 5e, all spells are magic. But not all magic is spells.

Magic can:
• produce a spell effect (including any innate spells of a species)
• produce a magical effect that isnt a spell (examples, Dragonborn breath weapon, and certain Psi Warrior features)
• produce an effect that isnt magic (example, the Create Water spell magically makes water that is itself nonmagical)

An antimagic zone suppresses any active magic, including a ki effect.

Depends on what you mean by "active magic" because per Sage Advice only explicitly magical ki effects are suppressed. And boy is that a can of worms. After all, we might agree that a Four Elements Monk using Burning Hands is suppressed, but the Shadow Monk teleport ability is not explicitly magical. So they should be able to teleport.

Shooting a radiant bolt? Well, it says magic so sun soul is suppressed.

Healing and inflicting wound with a touch? No mention of magic so Mercy Monks are good to go. In fact, you can even raise the dead in an anti-magic field.

Astral Self? Non-magical, go ahead and summon your soul to fight for you

Ascendant Dragon? Punch flames just like the Four Elements monk, but non-magically, so its allowed. So is summoning your spectral wings.

And this is why Anti-magic is STUPID. It breaks so much of the game and the only reason it exists is to tell casters no so there is some hope martial characters can have a cool moment occassionally.

 

[Chaosmancer]

while i don't want demigod casters i think the ideal baseline for all classes is above what it currently is for martials (and yes closer to the martials side of things than the casters), so a little meeting in the middle is apropriate, however, if casters aren't coming down i would rather that everybody sits in the damigod teir rather than only some of the classes being there

I agree. Also, earlier in the thread I stated (and I still believe) that barring something like 5 to 8 spells in the game... casters are in a really good and fun spot. Yes, Wall of Force, Wish, Simulacrum, Clone, these are too strong and need adjusted, but if you play a group of just casters from levels 1 to 13, it generally feels pretty good and pretty fun.

This is why I'm not really for nerfing casters, because they are only problematic in that they are so much more powerful than non-casters.