D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

whirlwind attack and volley are exactly the sorts of things higher level martials ought to be doing with each individual attack in my opinion (each attack not attack action)

Heh, I made an example of that for Whirlwind attack in my Combat Arts system. Volley I did restrict to once per turn currently. I wasn't sure about allowing a fighter to attack upwards of 70 something enemies in a turn (four attacks, each attack targets every enemy within 10 ft of a spot, rough math)

If fighter's didn't have three and four attack actions though, I could see it happenening.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Heh, I made an example of that for Whirlwind attack in my Combat Arts system. Volley I did restrict to once per turn currently. I wasn't sure about allowing a fighter to attack upwards of 70 something enemies in a turn (four attacks, each attack targets every enemy within 10 ft of a spot, rough math)

If fighter's didn't have three and four attack actions though, I could see it happenening.

Probably just turn volley into a dex save or something.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I am not being facetious, but one solution for the martial to excel without tapping into some supernatural power is to allow them to increase their ability scores far beyond a caster. For example, maybe by 12 or 14th level, they could have a 26 strength. By 20th a 30 strength.

Again to the multiple conversations issue. What's your assumption -- spellcasters remain the same?

Could be a solution here if tied to more than just more damage, higher Ac, etc. That's pretty boring and doesn't really give you much of the utility martials lack at higher level.

If skills were better defined and high skill rolls linked to cool things maybe.

So a very high Intimidation roll could cause enemies to flee or even stun at higher levels or frighten weaker enemies to death (PF2e does this!) but this could only be achieved by a martial with higher ability scores, etc.

Or Jump crazy distances

Or hide in plane sight, etc.

But that's really just offloading these class abilities to a revamped skill system that's gated to martials at the high end with higher ability scores.

I still think to get these abilities to the point where they close the gap they will look "supernatural" to some extent {again assuming spellcasters remain the same}

 

[CreamCloud0]

Heh, I made an example of that for Whirlwind attack in my Combat Arts system. Volley I did restrict to once per turn currently. I wasn't sure about allowing a fighter to attack upwards of 70 something enemies in a turn (four attacks, each attack targets every enemy within 10 ft of a spot, rough math)

If fighter's didn't have three and four attack actions though, I could see it happenening.

maybe if volley was reduced to a 15ft square rather than what it currently is that one would be more reasonable... (doing a quick search it seems the current description either covers 16 spaces in a 4x4 square or up to 25 in a circle area?)

but just letting martial's standard attacks take on more inherent AoE properties would really be a boon in their corner even if it was only for one of their attacks per turn, it's always pointed out how AoE spells are what manage to multiply the power of spells, they don't need to be as big/powerful as the spell AoEs because they'll be making up in quantity.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I hate to say it but being in a mega dungeon seems the only way to get WoTC to even try

Because it's the easiest thing for them to design and get high satisfaction.

Little talking. No space for unexpected movement. PCs are inclined to push forward. Controlled economy. Little plot to break.

ez mode.

Ah yes so much easier that they…rarely do it…and their most creative adventures are practically the opposite.

Sure.

 

[Minigiant]

Ah yes so much easier that they…rarely do it…and their most creative adventures are practically the opposite.

Sure.

Irs the easiest way for them to do high level.

One shots and Mega Dungeons are High Level on easy mode.

But neither are proper high level campaigns because they ignore everything high level.

One Shots remove stakes.
Mega Dungeons remove freedom.

It's the restaurant equivalent of saying they have vegan opinions by putting a salad, a packaged veggie burger, and french fries on the menu.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

maybe if volley was reduced to a 15ft square rather than what it currently is that one would be more reasonable... (doing a quick search it seems the current description either covers 16 spaces in a 4x4 square or up to 25 in a circle area?)

but just letting martial's standard attacks take on more inherent AoE properties would really be a boon in their corner even if it was only for one of their attacks per turn, it's always pointed out how AoE spells are what manage to multiply the power of spells, they don't need to be as big/powerful as the spell AoEs because they'll be making up in quantity.

There is no reason martial abilities can't break the action economy. In fact, that would be a cool differentiator btw martial and caster.

You spin and jump around like a devil and make one attack against every target within 30 feet, at the end you end up next to the last target you attack. This does not use a move action. Roll 1d6 for each target hit-- the target must make a save or be 1-2 blinded, 3-4 dazed, 5-6 stunned

You use a a combination of feints, grabs, taunts, whatever. Every enemy within 30 feet of you ends up to you and you make an attack on each. {this is come and get it but if taunting doesn't make sense in the narrative you just grab that wizard and yank him over)

You do whatever action hero like move you need to move from point A to point B within 120 feet if at all remotely possible. The DM may alter the narrative to make this so if needed -- the dragon swoops down at just the right time for you to bounce off its head, the tree branch breaks but momentum send you closer to another branch to swing off of, you smash through a number of enemies on the way over, etc. {this is a poor man's dimension door but would still be pretty good compared to today!}

 

[Chaosmancer]

I know you say it later on, and I know you say it's across tables, but how is this not a player problem? I mean, you are also a common variable in this equation. The fact that I have never seen a fighter say that doesn't prove that what you say is not true, but it does refute that it is a common problem. I cannot imagine any of my players or myself as a player ever just not interacting unless we do it purposefully to allow someone else the limelight.

Because it doesn't happen in other systems.

Sure maybe this player, and myself later on, and other people on the internet ALL have a player problem. But I also run games in a super hero system called "Sentinel Comics" and I have never once heard a single player lament that they ONLY have super strength and therefore can't help solve a problem.

Heck, I once had a character who was faced with an unbreakable shield that the villain created. The character is a martial artist, explicitly no super powers, and declared they were using their quality "Only Human" to strike the shield multiple times at precisely the correct frequency to induce resonance and shatter it... and it worked! Because the system allows it.

So, if I have a problem that only appears in one system, and not in another system... why would I assume it is a player specific problem and not a system inspired problem?

I have never said you can't blame the game. But I think the onus is on the DM and players before the game. The game has proven itself as millions and millions play while not encountering this problem. This isn't a Monopoly board that has one property that costs 20 million dollars. This is a game with many variables, and time has proven that this system holds those variables in place for most tables.

I've never denied that other people enjoy the game. But this appeal to popularity falls flat, because while large portions of the player base don't have this issue... a significant fraction of them DOES. The martial-caster divide is well known, well documented and discussed repeatedly, has been for the entire life of 5th edition and for pathfinder and beyond. Does it work for most people? Sure. But it doesn't work for everyone and I'd like it to work for more people .

So in this homemade campaign built for a solo character, an encounter was designed to be a no-win situation unless you called for a cleric? Am I misinterpreting that? That makes zero sense. In a town, you as a player supposedly helped design and create a path for things to do, you helped make an encounter that needed a cleric?
Apart from not even understanding the premise, I still don't understand why you needed a cleric. There are hundreds of work-arounds for this.

I was just the player, so I don't have all the information. But there was an undead. I had to outdrink it with alcohol or be shot and presumably killed. It was a curse, so it likely would have at least severely hampered me even if I likely didn't die.

I told the people to get the priest, who never showed up, and my only recourse was to take the challenge. Best of seven con saves, with my monk not having good con and the undead having good con. I only won because I rolled consistently high for those five rolls.

If I had been some other class, maybe like a cleric myself, I would have had more options. As it was... I had one choice. Rely on blind luck while at a disadvantage. Both of us were stunned I made it through as easily as I did, because it was all blind luck.

If you do not trust your DM (the person whose sole job is to help create a story, design an environment, and make interesting and fair encounters that match said story), then maybe you do need to find another DM. One you can trust. I mean, the game is set up to be a social contract. That contract exists so everyone can have fun. If the DM refuses to listen to your side, or worse for you, refuses to accept that this flaw in the game's design exists, then maybe it is time to switch tables. Or, even better, be DM and address the problem as you see fit.

And there it is. If you can't trust the DM, get a different DM. IF you trust DM, there should be no problem.

Okay Scott. I'm the DM. I don't always trust myself. Which DM should I go to to take my place as the DM? How do I resolve the problem of being the DM and not feeling like I have the best tools available, by leaving and looking for a new DM? Should I just quit DMing forever?

This is the FLIPPIN' problem with this argument. I'm not only making my case as a player, but as a DM, so can we stop pretending like the solution in ANYWAY looks like getting a new DM?

And, as has been stated many, many times, every single DM does not have to find homebrew solutions.

The fact that everyone claims "there is no problem" says a lot.

Everyone was hyperbolic because of the sheer number of people in this thread who keep insisting there is no problem. I'm sure about half the people in this thread say there IS a problem. And that should say a lot too. Except you'll dismiss them, because they aren't talking about the "real" problem, which is the player, or the DM, or anything that isn't the system.

Again, I never said there wasn't a hole. I said that with all the variables at each table, there will be holes for your game that don't exist in others, and holes in others that don't exist in yours. A common problem I read about is the amount of time it takes to run combat. That surely is a design choice. There are probably a thousand threads on how to make it go faster. Yet, I have never seen it actually work because the truth is, you are bound by the speed of your players. Just like hiking up a mountain with a group, you don't finish until the slowest gets to the top. So is the game design flawed because hundreds of people complain about this, or is it part of the system that works, but is bound by the players at the table?
And at what point are Reddit threads considered inconclusive? I mean, a 20th level wizard cannot defeat a CR15+ with minions no matter how hard they try or how well they are built. They need help, like a fighter or ranger or paladin or barbarian or cleric. Please allow an evil 20th level wizard to try and enter an androphinx's lair and kill it. A cursory thought of five minutes has allowed me as DM to pose a very serious (if not devastating) threat to the "can do everything" wizard.

Um... am I missing something about the Androsphinx here? It has nothing that prevents a caster from wrecking it.

Also, a 20th level wizard can absolutely wreck a CR 15 plus minions? Again, what the heck are you talking about here? That is almost trivially easy for them.

But frankly, I'm convinced it is the system. Sorry about it but after 100 pages of discussion, yet again, I still don't see anything being proposed that somehow changes anything. This isn't something that has only been discussed this once, or just on this site, it is EVERYWHERE, and the consensus seems to be that the gap exists. So let's fix it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Probably just turn volley into a dex save or something.

That's what Laserllama did. I almost copied it, but it didn't fit the conventions I'd already established.

 

[Chaosmancer]

maybe if volley was reduced to a 15ft square rather than what it currently is that one would be more reasonable... (doing a quick search it seems the current description either covers 16 spaces in a 4x4 square or up to 25 in a circle area?)

but just letting martial's standard attacks take on more inherent AoE properties would really be a boon in their corner even if it was only for one of their attacks per turn, it's always pointed out how AoE spells are what manage to multiply the power of spells, they don't need to be as big/powerful as the spell AoEs because they'll be making up in quantity.

I agree with letting them AOE, I just was a little nervous about four ranged AOEs every turn. Even if they didn't do a lot of damage. But I could be wrong about that. It was just a gut decision.