D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

But if you mess with people's assumptions, they stop believing the fantasy.

If your PCs are wandering into a village and see a stray dog on the side of the road begging for food, it's reasonable to assume it will behave like a regular dog will. If it says "thank you" or breathes fire at them, people will want to know why their assumptions were wrong. If your response is "its a fantastical setting, you shouldn't assume things are like they are on Earth", your PCs will have no frame of reference for encountering anything. Do all dogs talk? Do all trees explode in poisonous gas when cut?

One of the golden rules of storytelling is that if you change the assumptions of your world, it can't be a surprise to the audience but not the people who live in it. If your world lacks daylight, or has half the gravity of Earth, or such, that is not going to be a surprise to the characters. And in an RPG, your players are part audience and part author. They shouldn't be surprised that humans are capable of flight with practice or things.

Which is what Micah is saying; spell out your changes so that when people know when a common Earth entity differs. Or you risk players assuming they know nothing about your world and cannot make intelligent choices about it..

It's certainly true that PCs need enough information about the world to make intelligent choices.

World mechanics are described for many physical actions in the game.

Game mechanics are provided for PCs which spell out what the PC's capabilities are. Players do not need to worry about how their character may or may not be similar to Earth standards or why. The game tells them what they can expect to be able to do, and in whatever setting those characters are in, the world functions such that their PC can do them (unless the DM says otherwise).

The DM fills in as desired.

The player should expect the world and their characters to behave as the game mechanics describe, because that is how games work.

They should expect the DM to describe the way the world works when it conflicts with the game mechanics or when the mechanics are silent, because that is how D&D works.

Any expectations beyond this should be held only loosely until confirmed by the DM in-game.

After all, in these settings..

Here there be Dragons

 

[Gammadoodler]

I meant the Fighters abilities contradict the idea its just supposed to be an Earthling. Second Wind and Indomitable don't have real world equivalents.

Sorry, took me a minute to get what you meant. And yes 100%.

 

[James Gasik]

I just had this epiphany while posting in the Cantrip thread, and I wanted to put it here. It suddenly occurred to me that the reasons why "martials" (for lack of a better term) are so limited in their abilities to attack multiple foes, have "Easy" buttons for physical feats, and being able to deal energy damage to foes that require it comes down to one thing.

Niche protection. I believe the game developers isolated these elements as things that traditionally only magic-using types do in D&D, and attempted to wall them off so that a character that uses magic feels distinct from one that does not.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work the other way around, because anything a non-magical character can do, so can a magical one, because things like making attack rolls and skill checks are "mundane" activities. Rather than address this, WotC just made sure that any character can be made to have magical abilities if they so desire; you can get spellcasting, flight, swimming, climbing, or even a short range teleport from your race or your subclass (and more spellcasting with a feat) so you can play as a magical Barbarian if you so desire.

Unfortunately, because mundane isn't 1:1 to magic, you sometimes have to make more sacrifices to gain magic than a magical character has to make to gain martial abilities; the poster children here are the Eldritch Knight and the Valor Bard (or Bladesinger).

Regardless of whether or not non-magical classes are viable for play at all levels, I think this is a mistake. Making magic just better than mundane abilities, from a design standpoint, feels to me like the same old Ivory Tower design; players who realize they gain more from some kind of magical abilities will seek out classes that grant them, and players who don't (or simply don't want to be magical Barbarians, which is a totally valid aesthetic choice on their part) kind of get shafted, at least a little.

How much this bothers the individual player or impacts the DM when designing challenges obviously varies wildly. I mean, it's like ranged combat vs. melee combat. Ranged combat has a ton of advantages over melee, and so playing a ranged character seems like the smarter play, but a lot of people like the fantasy of swinging weapons at foes, so for them, the trade off of doing a little more damage in exchange for taking more damage and sometimes having to run around the map to get at their enemies, is totally worth it for them.

I mean, I've done it. My longest running D&D character ever is a melee specialist who doesn't even own a bow! But he supplemented his abilities with a stockpile of magical items so that he can pretend to be a Thief or a Mage if the circumstances call for it, because he noted early on that magic was the way for him to overcome his physical limitations.

Unfortunately, the "magic items optional" design actually favors the magical characters, because it become that much harder to gain magic if you don't have it as a result.

 

[Eubani]

I see that the SSS has allowed this to go on for longer than usual!

 

[Hussar]

I’m afraid to ask.

SSS?

 

[Gorck]

I meant the Fighters abilities contradict the idea its just supposed to be an Earthling. Second Wind and Indomitable don't have real world equivalents.

I would need to think more about Indomitable, but Second Wind most certainly does have a real world equivalent. I used to run track in high school and I used to play a lot of pick-up games of football with my friends. In each case, there would be a point where I would start to get tired, but I would keep on pushing myself. There would inevitably come a moment where I no longer felt that exhaustion and got a renewed burst of energy.

 

[James Gasik]

I would need to think more about Indomitable, but Second Wind most certainly does have a real world equivalent. I used to run track in high school and I used to play a lot of pick-up games of football with my friends. In each case, there would be a point where I would start to get tired, but I would keep on pushing myself. There would inevitably come a moment where I no longer felt that exhaustion and got a renewed burst of energy.

Yeah but why is it Fighter-only, then?

 

[Gorck]

Yeah but why is it Fighter-only, then?

……

The assertion was that D&D Fighters were not “earthlings” and that certain fighter abilities (like Second Wind) had no real life equivalents. Why it was only given to one class and no others was not even remotely part of that particular discussion. So I don’t know why you’re grilling me on it as if I had made some claim that it should be fighter-only.

 

[Minigiant]

Fighter's Destiny
Beginning at the 6th level, your history reveals itself. Choose one destiny:

• Dragonblood: One of your ancestors in one of the great true dragons. Instead of sorcery, their blood enhances you body directly
  • Increase your Strength, Constitution, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
  • You can roll Strength instead of Charisma on ability checks to influence others.
  • You can speak, read, and write Draconic or one other language of your choice.
  • You have resistance to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison.
• Fated Weider: Your soul is now linked to a magic item due to use.
  • Choose an uncommon or rare magic weapon. It is your fated weapon.
  • If you lose or do not own your fated weapon, it appears within 10 feet of you at dawn after 2d4 days.
  • If your fated weapon is damaged, you can have if repair by a skilled artisan for 1,000 gp.
• Godling: Divinity flows within you. You are a descendant of a demigod.
  • Increase an ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.
  • If a spell, such as Raise Dead, has the sole effect of restoring you to life (but not undeath), the caster doesn't need material components to cast the spell on you.
• Noble Heir: You are a descendant of a noble family known for their great warriors.
  • You gain Proficiency in Athletics, Deception, History, Intimidation, Performance, or Persuasion
  • Choose one skill of the skills above. You gain expertise with that skill.
  • Choose 2 languages, you have advantage of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma checks while speaking those languages.
• Prodigy of Arms: You are a natural genius in combat.
  • You learn one additional fighting style
  • You learn two maneuvers of your choice
  • You gain one superiority die
• Rare Birth: The stars aligned upon your birth and you are mightier than others.
  • Increase each of ability scores of your choice by 1
• Spellscarred

Epic Destiny
Beginning at the 14th level, the depth of your true history begins to seep into your future. You get an additional feature based on your destiny.

 

[Emberashh]

Niche protection. I believe the game developers isolated these elements as things that traditionally only magic-using types do in D&D, and attempted to wall them off so that a character that uses magic feels distinct from one that does not.

Ive always felt niche protection to be hella dumb.

But, on the same token, how they approached it is dumb. Pointing at my game I did actually go out of my way to cement the means for all 20 classes (and 80 subs) to feel distinctly different to play from one another, and even within the 6 different class types those sorted into. (Martials, Casters, Summoners, Mystics, Nature and Divine)

My Nature and Divine classes achieve this easily just by virtue of having a unified core ability that riffs on the conceit of the other 4 main class types; where a Ranger and a Paladin are Martials, a Hedge Mage and a Pilgrim are mystics.

But even in those similarities, a Ranger and a Paladin heavily diverge in play style. The Ranger is an AOE martial driven by exploding dice mechanics, whereas the Paladin is a tank-focused Martial, driven by use of their unique Signature weapon that, when empowered by the Paladin's Conviction mechanics, can inflict huge, if narrowly focused, amounts of damage, but also channel that Conviction to give the Paladin a good deal of control over the battlefield.

And then those, in turn, are differentiated from the standard Martials. Barbarians are simple, single-target big hitters, but also go down the route of anti-magic and movement control, giving the Barbarian equal ability to control the movement and placement of enemies and their spells.

Warriors are a complex, multifaceted Martial capable of damn near any approach to whacking something with metal, and especially good at shooting them from afar, but lean towards a heavy Warlord bent, focusing on enhancing their allies capabilities and restoring them to fighting shape.

And Rogues take the middle ground, driven by an adaptation of the Mighty Deed to become the definition of versatile, but also riff on the idea of movement control and tanking, becoming a bit of a speed tank; with high amounts of movement being generated and lots of access to verticality, where the Rogue is unable to absorb damage directly it can outrun it, and turn heights to their advantage.

And thats all just base classes; subclasses drive the combat niches to be even more specific and further differentiated within those bases. A Seadog Rogue and Assassin Rogue, while sharing the same core abilities, will be approaching combat so completely differently itd be night and day. While an Arquera Warrior and a Ranger who prefers a bow would ostensibly be similar in some ways, the difference would be a 500lb Warbow versus a dinky, if fast, 100lb shortbow, these differences driving heavily divergent playstyles akin to say, a sniper in the movie Wanted versus a guy dual wielding pistols in a John Woo movie.

All of that, to make the point that if you want the classes to feel distinct, that has to be driven mechanically through unique but separate mechanics, not by simply denying a class the only apparent mechanics you put in the game to do things.

I would need to think more about Indomitable, but Second Wind most certainly does have a real world equivalent. I used to run track in high school and I used to play a lot of pick-up games of football with my friends. In each case, there would be a point where I would start to get tired, but I would keep on pushing myself. There would inevitably come a moment where I no longer felt that exhaustion and got a renewed burst of energy.

I can see the logic, but that phenomenon isn't something you can activate at will. If Second Wind had a conditional to when it could be used (ie half HP or something), then I could see a clearer parallel.

Yeah but why is it Fighter-only, then?

Didn't use to be IIRC, but they had to give them something when the fallout of 4e spooked them into ripping everything out of the class and only adding in things if they survived a proverbial mountain of red tape.