D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure this will work out well. The flexibility and power of spellcasters comes from their 1-9 spells which are part of their base. Sub-classes add some flavor and tweak things but that's not where the gonzo comes from. This is perhaps why battle masters didn't get level based maneuvers. Not sure.

I think you need to bake in the gonzo into the main class.

You could perhaps do it justice if subclasses actually had a lot of design space to work in. We are making a new class, so that should be doable.

 

[Emberashh]

Treantmonk showing precisely why jacking up Martials to the Casters level is a terrible idea. Yeesh.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You could perhaps do it justice if subclasses actually had a lot of design space to work in. We are making a new class, so that should be doable.

It definitely could be done. But I think those subclasses would look very different from existing class subclasses. So is it worth it so to speak to look that different. Maybe that's a a plus? Not sure.

We do already have models of very flexible base classes in spellcasters to draw from.

There is no reason the mythic martial couldn't have a large list of abilities in the base class that a player could pick and choose from to create many different types of martials.

These could be categorized -- skill, strength, speed, etc. But I'm not sure I see the upside of limiting a player to picking one say. After all, the Wizard doesn't have to just pick conjuration.

I'm assuming there is only going to be 1 mythic martial class in the game and would be nice to have the flexibility to create whatever you want out of it. If someone wants something tightly themed they can pick certain abilities and the subclass would add some theming as well (ala sorcerer, warlock).

But not totally sold either way yet.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

It really would depend on what abilities we consider universal and what would be thematic. Jumps unbound by height can connect to a bunch of different archetypes (Hulk leaps, Wuxia, swinging on a whip, Jedi jumps) while manifesting actual wings is far more niche specific. Thus, most fighters can do amazing leaps but dragon knights can legit fly.

I definitely agree with the wings point that it doesn't fit all archtypes. But I also think we can leave that up to the player to choose to some extent.

I'd be careful with putting too many "universal" abililities in and would rather have a large list of abilities the player can choose from,

Perhaps most players would select some kind of unbound Jump as the most commmon, but perhaps someone wants to solve the movement problem with a magic hammer (part of class) that let's them fly and specifically does not want to be a mythic jump guy.

Seems like if it is built on the class ability list design you could even have room for the action heroy guy with equipment -- just pick non overt supernatural stuff for your lower level abilties and have a rule that you can get your abilties through an item(s) if you want and put all your higher level supernatural stuff into your item(s) (class items that are guarunteed and can't be taken away)

 

[James Gasik]

Treantmonk showing precisely why jacking up Martials to the Casters level is a terrible idea. Yeesh.

I watched that video earlier, I don't particularly think martials are suddenly equal to casters because they have a few control options on tap. Prone can be detrimental to your party (as that video shows, when Eldritch Blast became a terrible option due to all the melee proning people), the weapon switching wasn't a balance issue (6 more damage on the round where the guy did 106, lol), and giving martials the ability to push a guy 10' on a hit is like, 2014 cantrip + invocation level.

If anything, to me, it proves that boosting martials is a good thing- the melee Warlock was not overperforming compared to the Barbarian and the Fighter.

 

[Incenjucar]

I lean toward the warlock-style build-a-class feature set design. Let the player figure out if they want to be fast, skilled, tough, strong, cunning, or a mix, and give them enough options to do so. One character might leap off of their horse with a war maul to knock down waves of enemies, and another might climb giant monsters so they can make them hit themselves when they attack.

 

[Emberashh]

I watched that video earlier, I don't particularly think martials are suddenly equal to casters because they have a few control options on tap. Prone can be detrimental to your party (as that video shows, when Eldritch Blast became a terrible option due to all the melee proning people), the weapon switching wasn't a balance issue (6 more damage on the round where the guy did 106, lol), and giving martials the ability to push a guy 10' on a hit is like, 2014 cantrip + invocation level.

If anything, to me, it proves that boosting martials is a good thing- the melee Warlock was not overperforming compared to the Barbarian and the Fighter.

Having every mob be proned constantly is not very cash money.

Nor is the game incentivizing weapon juggling.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Treantmonk showing precisely why jacking up Martials to the Casters level is a terrible idea. Yeesh.

is there a specific timestamp on this video that you're indicating here?
edit: i guess the 'key learnings' section is probably what i should be checking here but i'll go back to watch the rest after
edit edit: i think i found this more an encouragement for strong martial options than a warning, sure some specific options might not of been the best mechanical executions but you'll always get a few stumbling blocks testing new materials.

 

[Incenjucar]

Knocking someone down is one of the core goals in any sort of melee battle. If the game doesn't support it, it has failed at combat.

 

[Emberashh]

Knocking someone down is one of the core goals in any sort of melee battle. If the game doesn't support it, it has failed at combat.

My problem has nothing to do with whether or not its possible to knock someone down.