Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Klaus]

Y'know, downing a 50 gp potion of mage armor once an hour really doesn't represent that big a sink. In practice, that's what monks I play with do.

Flurry of blows starts out as being basically the same as 2WF. At 5th and 9th it becomes a better deal, but not as good as Improved 2WF. At 11th level, the second extra attack kicks in. That's actually pretty nasty, and better than I2WF, and probably better than G2WF.

I don't like the mediocre BAB for someone who's clearly intended to be a skilled warrior, but I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with it having a 1/1 BAB and all good saves.

Two hours. Mage Armor's duration is 2 hours/caster level.

Here's a compromise between Medium and Full BAB: How's about giving the monk free Weapon Focus and GWF (unarmed strike)? At 20th level, this translates to +17/+12/+7 and a FoB of +17/+17/+17/+12/+7.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Isn't it interesting though when you mention rangers. Rangers using two weapons are attacking at -2 for all their attacks. Effectively, for most levels, they attack pretty much the same as monks. Yet, I don't see endless complaints about how bad ranger attacks are.

RAngers have full BAB and can get affordable magic weapons. (A pair of short swords costs less than the amulet.) Furthermore, most rangers are archer rangers, as TWF rangers are quite weak.

Let's go back to our 11th level monk again. The ranger has attacks of 9/9/4/4/1/1 compared to the monks 8/8/8/3. Yup, the ranger's got lots more attacks, but, mostly at significantly lower bonuses.

Why is the ranger's attack only one point higher? What sort of gear did he buy? Didn't he take Weapon Finesse?

If the monk's extra attacks don't make him stand up to the fighter, then the ranger must really suck.

TWF rangers do suck. Fortunately they have (minimal) options which still end up giving them more flexibility than the monk.

The math is pretty simple. 11/6/1 is NOT as good as 8/8/8/3.

The math is very complex. 11/6/1 is better, especially in play. Last time I checked, you don't get to stand and trade full-round attacks every round. Enemies move. Allies move. The battle flows all over the place. And when you're an archery class (as the TWF ranger is weak), just maybe you can shoot things with a full-round attack every round.

The only time it is, is against VERY high AC opponents, in which case, the fighter is the only one hitting anyway.

Look at the 10th-level example above. Not counting the obvious outlier, the animated object, the monk is disadvantaged most of the time, unless you think most CR 10 creatures have excessively high AC.

Unless, of course, the monk is smart enough to start tripping and thus getting his 12/12/12/7 attack routine at the prone target.

Which is a good strategy not unique to the monk.

Remember, if the fighter goes for improved trip, he has to burn 13 points in intelligence. A 25 point buy gives you three 14's an 11 and two tens. Stick a 13 in int and suddenly either your con or your dex blows. Meanwhile, the monk takes a 14 str, Dex and Wis and effectively has an 18 dex for AC bonus.

Not a serious problem, especially once the fighter's BAB and superior equipment gives him more than +4 to hit over the monk anyway A triptastic fighter is a little MAD, but he only needs to worry about one extra stat, rather than four. The fighter's AC is going to be just as good, unless he went for the mechanically inferior swashbuckler option.

Two hours. Mage Armor's duration is 2 hours/caster level.

I must have missed that rule.

Here's a compromise between Medium and Full BAB: How's about giving the monk free Weapon Focus and GWF (unarmed strike)? At 20th level, this translates to +17/+12/+7 and a FoB of +17/+17/+17/+12/+7.

That still puts the monk 5 points behind - the fighter is also taking Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus.

 

[Mad Mac]

*Looks up Mage Armor in the SRD*

Eh, still 1 hour/level, last I checked.

 

[Klaus]

*Looks up Mage Armor in the SRD*

Eh, still 1 hour/level, last I checked.

You're right, it's only 1 hour/level.

Curse my failing brain cells!

 

[Thanee]

Remember, if the fighter goes for improved trip, he has to burn 13 points in intelligence. A 25 point buy gives you three 14's an 11 and two tens. Stick a 13 in int and suddenly either your con or your dex blows. Meanwhile, the monk takes a 14 str, Dex and Wis and effectively has an 18 dex for AC bonus.

You are not seriously arguing, that monks have an advantage there, since they need so few decent ability scores, are you?

25 PB Improved Trip Fighter

Str 15
Dex 12 (+ full plate + heavy shield)
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 8

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mad Mac]

Anyway, 2-wpn Ranger vs Monk. (Yes, 2 wpn Rangers suck. I still like them though. Actually, I tend to pu both two-weapon and archery for my rangers) Lets make 2 elf, dex builds. 11th level, since Hussar seems so taken by it.

11th level Elf Monk. St 12 Dx 18 Con 12 In 10 Wis 14 Cha 8. Give Him Weapon Finesse, Wpn Focus, Amulet of Mighty Blows+1 (6000) Gloves of Dex+4 16000, Belt of St+4 (16000) Bracers of Armor+3 (9000) and Ring of Protection+2 8000 with 11000 left over for misc gear.

This Monk will have an AC of 25, Average 69 HPs, Single Attack +16 1d10+4, Full Attack +16/+16/+16/+11, 1d10+4.

Now an Elf Ranger with similar build. St 14 Dex 18 Con 12 In 10 Wis 12 Cha 8. Wpn Finesse, Wpn Focus, 1 +1 and 1 +2 Shocking Shortswords (26000) Gloves of Dex +4 (16000) Mithril Shirt +3 (9000) Ring of Protection +2 (8000) 7000 left over for misc gear.

The Ranger has AC 25 Av 69 HPs, Single Attack +12 1d6+1d6+4, or Full Attack, +18/+17/+13/+12/+8/+7 2d6+4 and 2d6+2

That's not going into stuff like crit ranges and other feats they could possibly have taken.

And for the Heck of it, I'll throw in a Paladin 11. (Based off my earlier observation that it's easier to compare to classes with lots of special abilities than a pure class like the fighter)

Human Paladin. St 16 Dx 10 Con 14 In 8 Wis 12 Cha 14. He'll have Wpn Focus Longsword, and buy a Cloak of Charisma +2 (4000) Belt of Strength+4 (16000) Flaming Longsword+2 (18000) Plate Armor+3 (10500) Sheild+3 (9000) Ring of Protection+1 (2000) with around 7-8k for misc gear.

He'd have AC 27 92 HPs Single Attack +19 1d8+1d6+7 Full Attack +19/+14/+9. Keep in Mind that one blow from him is worth roughly two from the monk, and that's without smiting or charging.

 

[jcfiala]

Now an Elf Ranger with similar build. St 14 Dex 18 Con 12 In 10 Wis 12 Cha 8. Wpn Finesse, Wpn Focus, 1 +1 and 1 +2 Shocking Shortswords (26000) Gloves of Dex +4 (16000) Mithril Shirt +3 (9000) Ring of Protection +2 (8000) 7000 left over for misc gear.

The Ranger has AC 25 Av 69 HPs, Single Attack +12 1d6+1d6+4, or Full Attack, +18/+17/+13/+12/+8/+7 2d6+4 and 2d6+2

I'm guesing you meant Single attack +22 1d6+1d6+4 there. (11 + 8 (dex) + 1 (wf) + 2 (short sword)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm guesing you meant Single attack +22 1d6+1d6+4 there. (11 + 8 (dex) + 1 (wf) + 2 (short sword)

Full Attack +20/+19/+15/+10/+9 melee then, compared to the monk's full attack of +16/+16/+16/+11. The ranger gets two hits better than the monk and the third is only one point behind. The ranger's fourth attack is also one point behind what the monk gets. (In fact, this ranger gets more attacks per round than the monk.)

A TWF ranger is weak, yet they're outperforming the monk.

 

[Mad Mac]

Eh, not quite. The Ranger has effectively 22 Dx, so it's Single Attack 11+6+1+2 +20. Full Attack would be +18/+17/+13/+12/+8/+7. I just messed up the single attack because I'm a bonehead, and because my first Ranger build had a higher AC instead of the +2 shortsword and I missed it.

(Had an amulet of natural armor at first, before I remembered the Ranger can just cast Barkskin for the same benefit)

 

[Mad Mac]

Of course, 11th level is about the best possible point of comparison for a Monk. If you scale the characters up to 20th (Not even going to get into gear at that point, lets just assume they max out their enhancement bonus for weapons, Strength, and Dex) It would look like this.

Monk. St 18 (12+6) Dx 26 (20+6) +5 Amulet of Mighty Blows.

Single Attack +29 (2d10+9) Full Attack +29/+29/+29/+24/+19 2d10+9

Ranger. St 20 Dex 26. 2 +5 Shocking Shortswords (Actually cheaper than the amulet. The Ranger will have a cash advantage overall, and can probably spring for Holy or other enhancements. but I'm not going to get into it)

Single Attack +34. 2d6+10. Full Attack +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17. 2d6+10 and 2d6+7.