Monk - what do you like and dislike?

But, why is everyone absolutely insisting on Amulet of Mighty Blows? Can't monks use weapons? Last time I checked, they could.

Why would I bother with bracers of armor +3? Is there are reason the party wizard can't drop a mage armor on me?

Look, I'm not going to argue that a monk is a better fighter than a fighter. I know that's not true. However, I think that people are grossly overstating the case that monks are so much weaker.

The thing is, monks are not as directly stronger. I know that. It takes a bit of tactical thinking to make a monk stronger. Monks are a party character, not a "Hey, look at me, I can do the most damage" kind of character. With a bit of buffing, monks can be absolutely awesome, if the party decides to work together.

An enlarged grappling monk is just nasty. He's the rogue's best friend. Is he the go to guy for dealing damage? Nope. He can deal damage, and he can do it fairly well. But, nope, he's not in the same league as the fighter or the barbie. But, then again, I noticed no one bothered to comment on the idea that the monk with full fighter progression would have insane attacks at 20th level.

Why do people figure the monk has to be better than the fighter in order to be good?
 

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Hussar said:
Why do people figure the monk has to be better than the fighter in order to be good?
Because they've watched too many martial arts movies. ;)

Jokes aside, I think that's the crux of the problem. When many players think "monk", they don't think of slow fall, or wholeness of body, or diamond body, or diamond soul, or tongue of the sun and moon. They think of a scrappy martial artist duking it out with bare fists and no armor. They're disappointed that the current monk sacrifices abilities that they do want for abilities that they don't really want.

The monk isn't ineffective in melee (if you accept the numbers I churned out, anyway :)). It just seems that way to some players because they expect it to be more effective - maybe not as effective as a single-classed fighter or barbarian, but at about the same level as a paladin or ranger.
 

Just wanted to go on record to state that "Be a Buff Old Geezer" should be the new name for the Timeless ability. I think I'll go scribble it into my PH right now... ;)

Continue going about your business....

-Matt
 

I asked this before, but I didn't get an answer...are the special abilities of the Monk class substantially better than the Paladin or Ranger? Really? I'm asking because I've seen precious little analysis of the usefulness of the monks assorted abilties over the years. It's always just handwaved away as "Monks are supposed to be weak fighters because they can talk to camels and surf down castle walls and don't sag in their old age."

I mean, if you want to discuss trade-offs, you'd need to know where the monk is powerwise, where they should be, and what changes should be made to get there.

I can add a staff-weilding monk to the comparison if you want, but the results aren't much better. And the monk has to throw down for Bracers of Armor at some point.
 
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FireLance said:
Jokes aside, I think that's the crux of the problem. When many players think "monk", they don't think of slow fall, or wholeness of body, or diamond body, or diamond soul, or tongue of the sun and moon. They think of a scrappy martial artist duking it out with bare fists and no armor. They're disappointed that the current monk sacrifices abilities that they do want for abilities that they don't really want.

I sure don't think of that stuff. I want a quick on his feet butt kicker if i play a monk, not a supernatural entity. I just don't like the flavor of monk in my semi-medieval D&D world anyway. It clashes too much. It fits much better with Oriental Adventures along with the ninja and samurai.
 

I dunno, I guess I grew up with Stephen R. Donaldson too much to dislike the monk in standard DnD. The monk guys from his Lord Foul's Bane series (whose name has completely escaped me - Cords?) just screams monk to me.

Plus, the fact that European martial arts traditions have been largely ignored by mainstream history means that the monk tends to stick out. There were unarmed combat techniques being taught, although without the mystical stuff, throughout Europe in the Middle Ages.
 

Hussar said:
Why do people figure the monk has to be better than the fighter in order to be good?

I'm not asking him to be better than a fighter. I'm asking him to be as good as a fighter, at least. Or even as good as a ranger using two-weapon fighting. And considering that one focus of the character seems to be unarmed attacks, focusing on how poor the Monk's Unarmed attacks are seems reasonable.

I'm perfectly happy to have a monk with a Good base attack progression, and a weakened flurry of blows. Heck, just change the character to gain 'Two weapon fighting - monk weapons only' and 'Improved Two weapon Fighting - monk weapons only' as bonus feats during the progression and toss the flurry of blows progression entire.
 

Hussar said:
But, why is everyone absolutely insisting on Amulet of Mighty Blows? Can't monks use weapons? Last time I checked, they could.

And if you use the weapon, you lose out on a huge class feature of the monk. People don't like giving up class features. Using wepaons nerfs your damage (usually) but gives you a slightly betteer chance to hit.

Why would I bother with bracers of armor +3? Is there are reason the party wizard can't drop a mage armor on me?

Because you're no longer pulling your weight in your own party. Other combatants don't have to ask for this kind of help.

An enlarged grappling monk is just nasty.

So is an enlarged grappling fighter. But enlarging a monk introduces a "nuclear weapon" - there's at least two incompatible systems to determine how much damage an enlarged monk does. The enlarged monk's AC goes down ... not a smart move. The fighter can lose a bit of AC and still live long enough to contribute. The grappling monk's AC drops because of loss of Dex (and maybe a size gain), making them very vulnerable to any melee opponent in the battlefield. There's no point of grappling someone if you're going to get killed next round because of it.

But, then again, I noticed no one bothered to comment on the idea that the monk with full fighter progression would have insane attacks at 20th level.

I did, though I didn't use the words "20th-level". I said the unarmed damage is too high. The D20 Modern Martial Artist has a full BAB but does only 1d10 damage when you've assembled the 20th-level character. That's a lot more sane. Furthermore, the Modern Martial Artist only gains one additional attack from Flurry of Blows and has to take a -2 penalty (instead of no penalty).

Boosting the BAB would obviously require applying a nerf to a few other areas - like unarmed damage, and maybe Flurry of Blows. (I have to wonder why a 1st-level monk gets flurry of blows. A 1st-level monk doesn't have a black belt yet, and he definitely doesn't have the attack bonus to sacrifice.)

Why do people figure the monk has to be better than the fighter in order to be good?

It has to be competitive, not better.

Plus, the fact that European martial arts traditions have been largely ignored by mainstream history means that the monk tends to stick out. There were unarmed combat techniques being taught, although without the mystical stuff, throughout Europe in the Middle Ages.

Western martial artists never had ki abilities. (Actually, neither did Oriental monks, but the latter often claimed to have them.)

Mad Mac said:
are the special abilities of the Monk class substantially better than the Paladin or Ranger? Really? I'm asking because I've seen precious little analysis of the usefulness of the monks assorted abilties over the years.

You do the analysis, then :) I'm way too biased to pull that off. (Note that, even if they are good, people often don't want them. There's a fairly large number of people who don't want to give rangers spells, no matter how cool the longstrider spell is.)
 

Hussar said:
I dunno, I guess I grew up with Stephen R. Donaldson too much to dislike the monk in standard DnD. The monk guys from his Lord Foul's Bane series (whose name has completely escaped me - Cords?) just screams monk to me.

You're thinking of the Bloodguard (aka Haruchai). I've always taken them as my (non oriental) model for D&D monks too. They seem pretty clearly to be the inspiration behind the OathSworn character class in Arcana Unearthed too.

Cheers
 

are the special abilities of the Monk class substantially better than the Paladin or Ranger? Really?

Good question. Let's go over the abilities by level, then.

1) Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike.
Well, these are all required for the class, basically. The Bonus feat is a nice touch, letting you decide if you want to grapple people better (and lose your AC), or try to hit them better (and watch them make their fortitude save).

2) Bonus Feat, Evasion
Evasion is a good trait for a Monk - it fits the theme of being a light, mobile fighter well, and helps protect the Monk's light, mobile hit dice. The Bonus feat between Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows seems an odd choice - given that people tend to inflict attacks of opportunity on you more often than you might be shot at, Combat Reflexes seems to be the default choice. (Mobility might have been a good option at this level too, as a bonus feat.) Still, good abilities.

3) Still Mind, +10' movement
This is where we start scratching our heads, folks. +2 to saves against the enchantment school... but this is going to be mostly Will saves, and we've already got a great will save - +3 for the level, and +2-4 for Wisdom, because Wisdom is a core ability for Monks. It's really gilding the lilly. I play a monk, and I can't remember ever using this.
The movement is good. Being able to move around the combat to where you're needed is helpful.

4) Ki Strike (magic), Slow fall 20 ft, 1d8 unarmed
Ki Strike is a great addition at this level - allowing a monk to fight bare-handed against monsters he might not be able to affect. Slow Fall, on the other hand, is almost useless. It only takes effect if you're within arm's reach of a wall, and falling. Climb is a monk skill to begin with, so this suggests that you've rarely failed your Climb check by 5 or more points, or else rarely failed a reflex save. And even then it's effectively a specific bonus to your climb skill when you're attempting the Catching Yourself When Falling action. Not too useful.
1d8 unarmed is nice - about the same damage as what the Ranger and Fighter are putting out.

5) Purity of Body, +1 AC
You're immune to all diseases. Yeah. But not the useful, funky magic diseases - you just stop getting a cold. There's not that many non-magical disease effects that come up that often to begin with, and that kinda assumes that you failed your fort save to begin with - a save that's already at +4 and climbing. Not too useful, and may never come up if your GM doesn't pick a disease-based threat.
+1 to AC is always nice.

6) Bonus Feat, Slow Fall 30', +20 movement
The bonus feat is Improved Disarm and Improved Trip. Improved Disarm is the problem here - it *sounds* useful, but since it's an opposed attack roll to disarm, even with the +4 bonus the Monk's ability is going to flag behind those of full BAB fighters. Improved Trip, on the other hand, is an oppossed attribute check, and the +4 bonus from the feat helps with the Monk's lower strength.
Slow fall, as we pointed out before, isn't much good.
This is also the level where the Monk stops having a penalty for flurry of blows, which is useful, and the +20 movement is even better for moving around a large 10x10 critter and establishing a flank.

7) Wholeness of Body
A little useful - but this is the Paladin's ability, fixed to 2 x level, and you can't use it on anyone else. Effectively, this is a +2 hp/level increase, except if you get knocked out you don't get the reserve hit points. So, not as good as a paladin, here, but not a loss.

8) Slow fall, 40', 1d10 unarmed damage
Still a yawner for Slow Fall. The unarmed damage keeps pace here with bonuses that fighters and rangers are getting from their higher strengths and magic weapons.

9) Improved Evasion, +30 movement
As with Evasion, this is thematic for a martial artist, and useful. The movement bonuses start to get really awesome, where the monk is effectively moving twice as fast as the unencumbered folk, and three times as fast as the fighters.

10) Ki Strike (lawful), Slow Fall 50', +2 AC bonus
I'm not sure how useful the Ki Strike here is. Unlike the magic Ki ability, which is generally useful, it depends a little on your GM if you're going up against enough opponents with DR Lawful. And in my (admittedly incomplete) searching of SRD files, I'm not finding any monsters with DR lawful. I'm sure there's some, but at this level and higher the Monk's damage output actually gets high enough to get past the DR anyway. (And they have to, for things that have DR good or cold iron or such.)
And I've already talked about Slow fall.
The AC bonus is still useful, helping to keep up with the fighters and rangers and barbarians and their magically enhanced AC.

11) Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
Diamond body gives you immunity to poisons. The same poisons you already have a +7 Fort save against anyway. I don't see this as being too useful - the Monk's likely to have a good Con on top of that fort save.
Greater Flurry gives you a new attack at your full BAB, which is only +8 at this level.

12) Abundant Step, Slow fall 60 ft., 2d6 unarmed damage, +40 movement
Abundant Step is basically Dimension Door 1/day. Useful for really fast movement... but then by this level you're already moving 70' as a move action, or 280' as a run. (edit) And you can use it to bypass a wall of force, or a crevace, or lord knows what. You can even bring along someone if you can carry them. (end edit)
2d6 unarmed damage starts to strike into the realm of the rediculous - until you remember that a Fighter could well have a +1 longsword, flaming, which would be 1d8+1d6+1. The movement gets even faster, although I'm not sure how much useful it can get here.
And Slow fall again.


13) Diamond Soul
Ah, Spell resistance of 10 + level. This isn't too bad - except now you can't be healed or helped magically in combat without taking a standard action to lower your SR, get the bonus, and then hope nothing gets cast on you. But if you don't get buffed too much during combat, it's effectively a 50% miss chance for casters of your same level effecting you. Good for WotC to make it scale with level, and useful against a lot of save-or-die effects that start coming along.

14) Slow Fall, 70'
Ugh. Like I'm going to miss a climb check with 17 ranks in it, or a Reflex save of about +14 to not fall in a pit? And who uses 70' pits, I ask you?

15) Quivering Palm, +3 AC, +50 movement
Who uses this? It's got a lot of wordage, but it's basically a Death Save attack that only works if you hit someone, and then only can be used once a week. So, if my +11 attack misses the 30 AC critter... um... well, there we go. Better luck next week.
The bonus to AC is good, but could be better - the Fighter probably has +4 mitheral full plate or something like that by now. The movement is getting really odd - The monk could almost take a break from the fight, check out the next room, and come back and still hit something.

16) Ki Strike (Adaminatine), Slow fall 80', 2d8 unarmed damage
This Ki strike is more obviously useful. Adamantine is usually a pretty heavy DR to try to get through, and the ability to ignore hardness when striking objects strikes me as useful as well.
The damage gets higher again, probably intending to keep pace with the Fighter's +2 flaming demon bane sword, and the Fighter's 22 or 24 strength bonus on top of that.
And Slow fall again.

17) Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon
Okay... I don't age. Or rather I do age, but I don't take damage from it until I die? Who does this ever effect? There's hardly no aging effects in the rules, and most characters start out in their 20's. Who ever ends up playing a monk in their 60s?
Tongue of Sun and Moon is cute, but how useful is it? You can speak to animals like a druid does... or you can speak to humans like anyone with a spell can. It's not like magic items of translation are going to be that hard to get. It's cute, and it could be neat in some cases, but by 17th level you've got other ways of talking to people.
In short, the level's a wash.

18) Slow Fall (sigh) 90 feet, +60' movement
I'm the Flash now.

19) Empty Body
Going Ethereal is nice, and being able to bring other people with you is cool too, although that's a tricky thing. It says 'as though using the spell etherealness', but doesn't give an effective caster level for how many folks you can bring along. If you were just supposed to make yourself Ethereal, then why didn't they say 'as though using the spell Ethereal Jaunt'? And this is 19th level - aren't we well and truely used to hopping into the Ethereal plane? And can't our 19th level friend the wizard cast etherealness and bring the monk along as well? A lot of 19th level adversaries aren't going to be put off by going Ethereal, and may follow you there. I'm really not sure how useful this is, unless you're supposed to bring your friends with you, in which case that's kinda nice.

20) Perfect Self, Slow fall any distance, +4 AC, 2d10 damage
Perfect Self: You're now an outsider, and you get DR 10/magic... although at 20th level, what tries to hit you that doesn't count as magic to some degree? You can't be held person or charm personed... but your will save is already at something like +18 for Enchantments anyway, and +16 or so for anything else that targets humanoids. Kinda useful, but not terribly useful.
The AC progression hits its limit, and the +4 AC is good to have, replacing the +4 mithral chainmail the ranger would use, including the wisdom bonus to AC.
The damage hits 2d10, which does seem a little excessive, given the five attacks you have. On the other hand, it's less likely to hit. Still, what weapon is the figher weilding at 20th?
Slow Fall any distance: Great. I can fall 200' without damage (if I'm close enough to the wall), or I could make my +23 climb check to start with.

So, to summarize (too late!)
Good abilities:
Some bonus feats (Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip)
Flurry of Blows/Greater Flurry
Evasion/Improved Evasion
Faster Movement (although it does get a little silly at higher levels)
Ki Strike (Magic and adamaintine)
AC and damage progression
All good save progressions
Abundant Step

Medium Abilities (Alright, but could be made better or replaced):
Wholeness of body
Ki Strike (Lawful)
Diamond Body
Tongue of Sun and Moon
Empty Body
Perfect Body
Medium BAB progression

Poor Abilities (Might as well not have them):
Bonus Feats (Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm)
Still Mind
Slow Fall
Quivering Palm
Timeless Body

In my opinion, most of the Monk abilities aren't as good as people think they are, given their restrictions (limited equipment), and non-combat focus of many of these abilities. I don't think giving them a full BAB would be unabalancing, although Flurry of Blows could be knocked back if needed. The 2d6-2d10 damage levels seem extensive, until you think of the fighter wielding a Flaming Greatsword (2d6+1d6+1+(1.5 x Strength)). You could easily drop all of the Poor abilities without changing most monks' effectiveness at all, I suspect.
 
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