D&D 5E Morale and Loyalty in the DMG

[Flexor the Mighty!]

No idea. 2e did something similar with a 2d10 system, and a lot of modifiers. I'm guessing a lot was just pull out of thin air, which is how I'd do it.

 

[chriton227]

Wisdom seems like a bad choice: consider
1. Now is actually a really bad time to bug out. Wisdom will both let you see that, and also allow you to over come your base fear and not bug out. Fine so far
2. Now is actually an idea time to bug out. Wisdom will let you see that, but will also allow you to overcome your base fear and not bug out... Hmmm...

Also the charisma of your leader should play into it, as should your intellect etc etc.

I don't see a morale check as having anything to do with making a well reasoned retreat or surrender, it represents whether an enemy panics and either gives up or routs independent of whether that would be the desired course of action, and in that case Wisdom (being the save that is used to resist fear) appears to be the correct save. It also can represent whether the enemy has the willpower to obey orders even if it appears to be a bad or suicidal course of action (for example fighting a delaying action against an obviously superior force to give the king time to escape).

I do agree that the leader's charisma should play into it, as well as other factors like it being common knowledge that deserters will be executed on sight or fighting to protect their homes and families. Commanders should be able to attempt to rally their troops after they break, whether through persuasion or intimidation.

 

[Hriston]

Do creatures that are immune to the frightened condition automatically succeed on Morale checks?

 

[Anth]

Do creatures that are immune to the frightened condition automatically succeed on Morale checks?

Only in regard to fear.
You don't need to be scared to lose morale.

 

[Hriston]

Only in regard to fear.
You don't need to be scared to lose morale.

So, is there no equivalent to non-intelligent creatures/ certain undead/ lizardmen (er.. folk) having unbreakable morale? I've noticed that all 5e monsters have an Intelligence of at least 1.

 

[Anth]

So, is there no equivalent to non-intelligent creatures/ certain undead/ lizardmen (er.. folk) having unbreakable morale?

That wasn't what I said.
I just pointed out that there isn't any correlation between fearlessness and loss of morale.

 

[Hriston]

That wasn't what I said.
I just pointed out that there isn't any correlation between fearlessness and loss of morale.

Of course! I certainly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was merely attempting to further the discussion. I'll have to make sure to ask my questions more generally in the future.

But to directly address your statement, what else would you say would trigger a loss of morale other than fear?

 

[Anth]

Of course! I certainly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was merely attempting to further the discussion. I'll have to make sure to ask my questions more generally in the future.

But to directly address your statement, what else would you say would trigger a loss of morale other than fear?

You can lose morale if:
- You* are surprised (like someone behind your back say BOO!)
- You lost half of you hp (you don't wan't to die).
- Your opponent is invulnerable (whats the point fighting someone you can't harm).
- Your leader dies (this depends of how much the leader mean for the group)
- Half of your friends down before you felled even one enemy (a combo of losing ½ hp & invulnerable opponent)
- The opponents are larger than you (like 2 size categories)
- The opponents are more than you (like 2-3 times more)
- The opponents have much better weapons than you (like sticks vs. guns)
- You "know" the opponent is dangerous (this is actually more what you believe than how dangerous he is)
(the above is basically from the DMG)

Then you have to consider things that make you keep your morale:
- Defending your home
- Defending your loved ones

Another question is how you react at a failed morale check: do you surrender or do you flee?
This is a question about what you know about your enemy: is he merciful or meciless?

Then you have take into account if you are cornered, or are free to move (remember that you will feel cornered if your opponen is faster than you).

For me the morale check is definitely a "rulings, not rules" thing, and requires common sense from the DM.

Here is an example of a failed morale check by surprise:

[video=youtube;VXFuK9fru7g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXFuK9fru7g[/video]

*Even if I use the word "you" the PCs never roll for morale, it's up to the players to decide how their PCs react.

 

[Hriston]

You can lose morale if:
- You* are surprised (like someone behind your back say BOO!)
- You lost half of you hp (you don't wan't to die).
- Your opponent is invulnerable (whats the point fighting someone you can't harm).
- Your leader dies (this depends of how much the leader mean for the group)
- Half of your friends down before you felled even one enemy (a combo of losing ½ hp & invulnerable opponent)
- The opponents are larger than you (like 2 size categories)
- The opponents are more than you (like 2-3 times more)
- The opponents have much better weapons than you (like sticks vs. guns)
- You "know" the opponent is dangerous (this is actually more what you believe than how dangerous he is)
(the above is basically from the DMG)

Then you have to consider things that make you keep your morale:
- Defending your home
- Defending your loved ones

Another question is how you react at a failed morale check: do you surrender or do you flee?
This is a question about what you know about your enemy: is he merciful or meciless?

Then you have take into account if you are cornered, or are free to move (remember that you will feel cornered if your opponen is faster than you).

For me the morale check is definitely a "rulings, not rules" thing, and requires common sense from the DM.

Here is an example of a failed morale check by surprise:

[video=youtube;VXFuK9fru7g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXFuK9fru7g[/video]

*Even if I use the word "you" the PCs never roll for morale, it's up to the players to decide how their PCs react.

OK. What I'm getting from the distinctions you've made here is that apart from being afraid (because someone scared you by catching you off-guard, or you're afraid of being killed, especially if you've just seen your leader or comrades killed, or because the enemy is superior in some way) there are these other factors of having nothing to fight for and/or feeling that it's futile to continue fighting (both could be characterized as a lack of motivation perhaps?). This helps me tie in the concept of Loyalty since a strong leader could be a possible source of motivation, as his/her death or desertion would invariably be de-motivating.

 

[Unwise]

A friend of mine was DMing and described the Morale test crudely by effectively as the "F*** This" check.

It need not be fear that makes you say "stuff this for a joke, I'm out of here". A soldiers pay check being late, being made to fight your own countrymen, the risks simply not balancing vs reward, having a better offer elsewhere, all of these come into it. Trying to break Morale by fear is certainly an option, but showing strength then offering the mercenaries 100gp to simply leave is another way to do it. As is the Paladin pointing out that they are standing against the divine will of his god and their souls a in jeopardy. Some mercs/bandits etc can still be pious enough to avoid attacking a Paladin or Cleric.